Interview with B-Boy Puppet Master (The Shaka Zulus)

                                                         

                                                             B-Boy Puppet Master (The Shaka Zulus)


                                      conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders/Germany)


SIR NORIN RAD:"Where were you born and raised at?"

PUPPET MASTER:"I was born in the Bronx.....176th Street & Bathgate Avenue. That's in the 1960's. I kinda got two histories because I grew up in the Bronx till the age of thirteen and then in 1973 my mother moved to Harlem.....149th Street between Broadway and Riverside. I basically continued growing up over there but I always went back and forth to the Bronx because my grandmother lived in the Bronx, so I had family in the Bronx. It was always going back and forth to the Bronx. I even went to high school in the Bronx."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which high school did you attend over there?" 

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, that was Samuel Gompers. 1974, 1975 I went to Samuel Gompers on Southern Boulevard. At that time it was an all boys school. Most of the schools at that time in the Bronx and Manhattan were either all boys or all girls schools. Mostly vocational and technical schools. In my first year there I met Afrika Zambu through Tyrone Butler aka Pase 161 from Soundview. Zambu was Bambaataa's first DJ partner. Back in the 1970s everybody had a second DJ. It was Grandmaster Flash and Disco Bee, it was Kool DJ Herc and DJ Timmy Tim and at that time it was Afrika Bambaata and Zambu."

SIR NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard huge parts of the Bronx were divided into different gang territories in the early 1970s and you told me you joined a gang called the Peacemakers. How did that come about?" 

PUPPET MASTER:"That's true. 1971 I joined the Peacemakers. I was eleven so I was a Baby Peacemaker. You had the Baby Peacemakers, The Young Peacemakers...and the Peacemakers. From 1968 to 1973 it was all gang culture, you know?"

SIR NORIN RAD:"What was it that one had to do in order to join the Peacemakers?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Sometimes you had to go through the Apache Line. Sometimes you might have to fight a 1 on 1,  a 2 on 1 or a 3 on 1. It depends on who the person was. If the person looked kinda shakey then they would tell him, "Do the Apache Line!" If the brother looked like he could hold his own it wasn't no Apache Line it was just, "Come on in!" With me it wasn't no Apache Line, I fought the vice president and the warlord and they let me in."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What did it mean to be a Peacemaker? Did you have to wear specific colors?"  

PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, we all wore colors. Ours was the peace sign on the back. When the Peacemakers first started in 1971 it was a peace sign and it may have the crossed swords or  crossed 44s (guns) 'cause actually a peacemaker is a 44 pistol. A peacemaker, you know?  So yeah, we had colors, a top to bottom rocker and our symbol was the peace sign."


 

Colors of the Peacemakers

SIR NORIN RAD:"How many divisions did the Peacemakers have back then?"

PUPPET MASTER:"We had altogether 36 divisions. We had Peacemakers in the Bronx. Marmion Ave & Tremont...that's where our club house was at......Lambert, Uptown....Gun Hill Road, Edenwald Projects. We als had Peacemakers in Harlem....Douglas Projects, 145th, 144th, 143rd, 142nd Street & Broadway all that was Peacemakers' turf (territory) back then."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Talking to Kusa from the Zulu Masters I heard that what actually got him into Breaking was watching the Black Spades doing  their specific dance at Bronx River. Did the Peacemakers also have dancers among them? Would they dance at their club house or at parties?  What did their dance look like?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, there was dancing going on. We would have Peacemaker parties or sometimes even when the Black Spades gave a party we would come to their party. Or the Black Spades would come to a Peacemaker party. They were our allies. Yeah, they would be dancing and there would be the gestures, you understand, the waving of the hands. They might do a little spin, kick a leg out...it wasn't going on the floor at that time."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did the Peacemakers also have an anthem? I was told that the anthem of the Black Spades was James Brown's "Soul Power". Whenever they would gather before a rumble they would listen to that song and chant, "Spade Power!" instead of "Soul Power!""

PUPPET MASTER:" Right, right. Ours was Funkadelics "Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On" and then we also had "Potential" (by Jimmy Castor). We would say,"Makers, maker, maker, maker, make" to the rhythm of the bass in the beginning of that song."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you recall a DJ by the name of Lay Lay who was down with the Fun City Crew? Many Puerto Rican B-Boys from such crews as The Bronx Boys or Rockwell Association told me that they went to his jams and that he was a Peacemaker once, too."

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh you're talking about Peacemaker Lay Lay. Peacemaker Lay Lay was the warlord of the Peacemakers. Peacemaker Lay Lay was an original. First of all I'd like to say,"May Allah be pleased with him!"  because this brother passed away about three or four years ago.  He was the warlord of the Peacemakers, the supreme warlord of the Peacemakers. Later on he formed Fun City. Fun City is an extension, like a subdivision of the Peacemakers. They were still Peacemakers, they just called it Fun City Crew. You understand? Like the Casanovas...most of the Casanovas were Black Spades. I know DJ Lay Lay very well, he used to play in the park over there..... 129 school yard by the pool."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Mapes...."

PUPPET MASTER:"That's right! Mapes Pool!!! He had that thing packed!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"So I guess you also know his partners DJ Stuff and DJ Apache?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, yes. All this was in the area of  Southern Boulevard, Mapes, Marmion...... Our clubhouse was two blocks down from Mapes pool."

SIR NORIN RAD:"....and the Peacemakers always had Lay Lay's back whenever he would throw a party, correct?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, for sure! For sure! Whenever Lay Lay came out, we were always there. Matter of fact Prince Whipper Whip used to MC for Lay Lay at one time. Me and Prince Whipper Whip grew up together. He also lived on 149th Street between Broadway and Riverside in 1974, 1975, then he moved to the Bronx on Valentine Avenue and became Prince Whipper Whip."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you recall the first time you saw people going off?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Okay, so now we are talking about 1973/74. My brother Mike used to go to a lot of Kool Herc parties and he used to come back telling me about this and that. How he had seen this guy doing this, how had seen this guy doing that and he would do some moves in our house and stuff. But then as I got a little older and as I started to go out, my first jam that I went to was Over The Dover."

SIR NORIN RAD:"DJ Smokey!"

PUPPET MASTER:"Right, DJ Smokey was playing there and that's where I saw B-Boys going off! They wasn't actually doing floormoves, they was rocking on the top. But then the following year I went to another party on 183rd Street & Webster Avenue......the P.A.L.....a Herc joint and they played "Shaft In Africa" and I saw this guy start spinning on the floor. That was the first time that I ever saw somebody spin on the floor! I used to call it The Spinning Top 'cause the way he did it. He used to spin...where he started from he spun so fast that he winded up on the same spot and then he spun back up with his arms crossed."     

SIR NORIN RAD:"Could you please describe the atmosphere at those parties?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ah man! First you can hear the music when you come off the train station 'cause when you come off the train station on 174th Street the movie theatre is right there. So right away you felt the vibe! Then you came down the steps, the movie theatre was The Dover and then to the left was a little door, you had to walk up the steps one flight and that's where Over The Dover was. Smokey was there and the guys were doing their thing! Man, listen! The vibe was very, very positive! You could feel the energy! By the time you got off the train and you got to the door towards the steps...you felt the energy." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"How would the beats affect your soul at those jams?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ah man, when you heard "Sex Machine" I mean "Give It Up Or Turn It A Loose"......goosebumps!!!! It gave you goosebumps! Especially when I started going over to Bambaataa joints because the way he was playing his music and his system...you could hear all the bongos and the drums and all those instruments. He had a bad system!!! I mean Herc had the Herculoids system and it was real nice but Bam??? Ahhhhh man!!!!!! The vibe I described at Over The Dover....."


SIR NORIN RAD:"Yeah?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Bam's vibe was ten times that! It was ten times that! Because...let me tell you...going to Bronx River, Bronxdale, just that side of town itself was crazy. A lot of people back then was kinda scared to go to Bronx River. One thing I gotta say and shout outs to Bronx River, Bronxdale, Soundview, Monroe, Lafayette everybody over there, they always showed me much love because they had respect for the B-Boy game. I used to always come out of Harlem and burn the shit out of cats, you understand? And they had respect for the game. It wasn't all about they jumping you or whatnot, if you was nice with your skills you could hang. If you got burned back then you had to leave the party because they would snap on you all night."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What caused you to go there? Was it because of your cousin Rodney B aka Puppetmaster #2? I'm asking this question because Cholly Rock (The Zulu Kings) told me that in the mid 1970ies Afrika Bamabaataa was like a mysterious figure to most people in the Bronx, not too many outside of the Soundview section knew who he was and as you said many were also scared to go to Bronx River."

PUPPET MASTER:"That's true!!! Yeah, it was that mysterious, dangerous type of vibe that
emanated from that place (laughs). But yes, my cousin Rodney B was from Lafayette. But also my best friend when I went to Samuel Gompers High School, Tyrone Butler, we used to write graffiti on the trains together.....he was from Soundview, him and his brothers Craig and Mike, they were all B-Boys. He more or less introduced me to Bronx River 'cause he started talking about Baby Huey and Yellow Sunshine and this and that and all these B-Boy joints. He had given me a 8-track......that's how far back that was.....he gave me a 8-track, not a cassette, a 8-track with B-Boy joints on it. So I used to listen to that, I used to practice in the house and then one day he showed me a ticket...it was on a Friday or Saturday......it was a ticket, not a flyer, a actual ticket....and the ticket said,"DJ Afrika Bambaataa versus Tommy The Turntable Magician" and it said,"Zulu Nation!".  I was just getting hyped because of the way it sounded. I said, "Damn!" and back then it only costed 1.50 $ to get in. So I go to the party and that's my first time.....I went off by myself...first Pase (Tyrone) went off  and then I went off by myself. From there I started going to (JHS) 123, Ronnie's Disco Inferno, Bronx River Center, in the summertime in the back of Bronx River, Rosedale Park....... just that whole area, I stayed on that side of town coming from Harlem and like I said they always showed me love. Actually, I was the only one from Harlem coming to the Bronx and burning the shit out of cats and wasn't getting in no static."   

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which definitely means a lot since Bronx River was notorious for being a tough place."

PUPPET MASTER:"Correct. Now like I said before if you came to Bronx River and you knew people or people knew you from back in the days or if you carried yourself in a certain way, nobody would mess with you BUT if you came to Bronx River and you didn't know nobody and you looked like an easy prey....you know, the wolves are always out!!! Sometimes you might leave without your coat, sometimes you might leave without your sneakers, you understand? Walking through Bronx River especially when they were jamming in the back in the summertime you could hear James Brown or Baby Huey as soon as you walked towards it in the projects. The vibe was just......oh my god!!!!!! Big ups to all the Zulu Kings.....big ups to Squirpy (Shaka), Ahmed, Artie J (Aziz)...of course Cholly Rock...all of them were top notch B-Boys so if they gave you your respect then that's what it was!"  

SIR NORIN RAD:"What made you pick up that name Puppet Master?"

PUPPET MASTER:"(chuckles) There used to be a cartoon...The Lone Ranger.....that used to come on and there was a villain called The Puppet Master.... that was an influence. Back then I was a little double jointed, you understand? The way that I danced, I was able to do certain contortions and spins and fold myself up and spin out of it and come up on my toes. I would also act like I pulled myself up by my shirt, like as if I was controlled by a puppet master or I would let my arm hang and swing like a puppet on a string. That's where I got the name Puppet Master from and it stuck to me. And then my cousin Rodney B....I taught him, he started practicing with me.....he used to go to 123 with Popeye and Wade (B-Boys of the Shaka Zulus) and all of them. He was a little younger than me but he knew Wade because he lived on their side of town an he would go,"I'm Puppet Master #2!!" I said,"Okay, alright! You're Puppet Master #2!" But he became a pretty good B-Boy."    

B-Boy Puppet Master and his cousin Rodney B aka Puppet Master #2 (The Shaka Zulus)

SIR NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard so far in the beginning of B-Boying most B-Boys would do certain routines like James Bond would do....."


PUPPET MASTER:"The Get Smart!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Right, the Get Smart...."

PUPPET MASTER:"Everybody had their signature moves. James Bond had his Telephone routine...Me I had a number of signature moves...I had my spins, I would dig the grave......"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Damn!"

PUPPET MASTER:"I would measure you up, do The Robot and measure you up. Then I would measure the ground, get my shovel, dig the grave, right? Do a nice move and then... BOOM!!.....lay you in the grave. Then I would cross my arms and rise from the grave. Other B-Boys would also do The Rise From The Grave but mine had a whole story attached to it. I would measure you up like I had a measuring tape, then measure the ground, dig the grave, then I'd jump into the grave but with my arms crossed, lay you in the grave and then I would rise from the grave. We all had signature moves, like Ahmed (The Zulu Masters), he had the Jerry Lewis and he would do the motorcycle. Everybody had their signature moves. Squirpy (aka Shaka of the Zulu Masters)....I don't know if you have ever seen the Shaw Brothers, the karate movies, where they would jump up in the air and then turn around and it's like a backkick in the air. Squirpy was good at that 'cause Squirpy looked like he could jump like maybe 4 or 5 feet up in the air and turn around and do the kick and land on the ground. Artie J (Aziz of the Zulu Masters) was nice!!! All these brothers over there was nice with it. "    

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you also have a routine which entailed those Puppet-On-A-String type moves?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, yes! If it was major competiton that's when I would bring out the Puppet Master moves."  

                                                                      

One of the Puppet Master's evil puppets (from the Lone Ranger cartoon series)

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did you become acquainted with all the Zulu Masters from Bronx River?"

PUPPET MASTER:"I saw all of them at 123. At that time they had on their snow suits with two stripes. It was winter time, they had on their snow suits with two stripes and those goggles and stuff and I had on the bubble jacket. That's actually the first time I saw the whole Zulu tribe. That's after I went to Bronx River, at 123 I saw everybody."

SIR NORIN RAD:"I see. Do you recall how you got introduced to the Shaka Zulus? Did that happen through Rodney B?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, because like I said they all lived in the same neighbourhood.  He knew Popeye, he went to school with him. He knew Wade, he knew all of them. The Shaka Zulus were the younger crew that came after the Zulu Kings. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"What do you remember about your time with the Shaka Zulus?"

PUPPET MASTER:"We all used to link up. You know, at that time none of us was really down with a specific crew. We was more like....how would you say...outlaw B-Boys, we didn't belong to no crew, we were just nice with our shit. Sometimes I would come to a party and I would see Wade (founder of the Shaka Zulus). We would all be standing there and we would see other B-Boys going off so I would tell Wade to go get'em, to go and eat them up.  Then Wade would come out and I'd jump in and eat them up. Then Rodney B. would jump in and eat them up. We were just forming a bond! We were looking for anybody that didn't belong in that neighbourhood and was trying to B-Boy. We would go off and burn the shit out of'em. That's more or less how Wade formulated the Shaka Zulus. It was a coalition! It was a coalition because we wasn't really down with no crew. We was just nice with our shit and we would come to the parties and dance! And I used to see Wade at all the parties.....123, Ronny's Disco Inferno, Bronx River and then we started to hang out. You know, me and Wade we got real tight. I was caught in the Blackout in 1977, I was stuck over there in the Blackout and the following day Kool Herc was in the back of the center and that's when I challenged Ahmed to a B-Boy battle in the back of Bronx River Center. Everybody that was there said it was one of the baddest battles in the history of B-Boying. A lot of people said that Ahmed came out a little bit over me, you know, but listen...history was already made when we did our thing. That was a hell of a battle! You can ask anybody that was there...Wade was there, Cholly Rock was there, all of the Zulus was there. People were climbing trees, climbing poles." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"So this battle took place outside, right?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Right, outside of the center in the back they had a little stage where Bambaataa used to set his equipment up and there was a little circle and that's where we all used to dance. And let me just say this for the record...it wasn't no cardboard, it was strictly concrete!!  It was strictly concrete and Pro-Keds sneakers. It wasn't no elbow pads, no helmets, nothing like that, you had to know what you was doing."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you remember the songs that were played during that
battle between you and Ahmed?"


PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, that was "Get Into Something".....Herc played "Get Into Something" by the Isley Brothers, then he played Baby Huey and to top it off he went to "Apache"...we went off to three or four records....that was one hell of a battle! It was me, Reggie Wells, Theron...they was from over by Crotona. They happened to be there and they helped me out. (laughs) Wade was on my side and Cholly Rock and them was on the other side.  Squirpy, Ahmed, Artie J they was all on the other side but when the smoke cleared and all was over they all came to me and shook my hand."

Ahmed (The Zulu Masters)

 
SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you ever officially join the Zulu Nation?"

PUPPET MASTER:"After that battle Ahmed told me to come to Bam's house the next day.  So I came to Bam's house the next day, it was a a long line of people standing in front of Bam's door to sign that book. I came there, I stood in the back of the line. Ahmed saw me, he called me towards the front. I signed the book and they gave me a card and that's all it was." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which other DJs used to play breakbeats for the B-Boys at 123 besides Afrika Bambaataa?"

PUPPET MASTER:"At any given time you'd go to 123 you could hear Mario,  you could hear Kool Dee, you could hear Tex. Even Breakout came to 123 a couple of times."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Speaking of Mario what were the most notable B-Boys out of Bronxdale that would dance at his parties?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, those were some good brothers! First and foremost I'd like to say,"Rest In Peace!" to my man Stearling. He passed away maybe about six or seven years ago. He was a good brother! Stearling, Cleamont, Cookie all of them were from Bronxdale. Mike G, you had Lil Black Jack over there from the third section of Bronxdale. All of them was good to me. Like I said I used to go with a girl over there in Bronxdale. That's where we used to hang! You had B-Girls...Maggie, Lilo...those were DJ Tex's sisters. And then in Bronx River there was Trina." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What kind of snacks and drinks were being consumed at those parties? I hope that's not a stupid question but I have always wondered about this."

PUPPET MASTER:"Nah, nah, that's not a stupid question. Before you got to the party you better get yourself a beer or a Malt Duck or that Nighttrain or whatever. White Castle was right across the street from 123. Anytime you wanted something to munch on or something to drink you would get your stuff from there. Bronx River...I never saw them selling no punch or nothing you always had to go to the store before you got there but as things progressed....with  places like the Audubon Ballroom, Ronnie's Disco Inferno, Hunts Point Palace... there you could buy a punch or get some water. Back in the early days you had to BYOBB - bring your own brown bag. Everybody went to White Castle for munchies after the party."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What exactly are the "munchies"?

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, being at a party sometimes we would be smoking Chunky Black. Chunky Black was the weed that we were smoking at the time. So we had Acapulco Gold, we had the Chunky Black, we had the Panamanian Red, you understand? Smoking all that entailed getting hungry a.k.a the munchies. After we was puffed we would get the munchies so we would go to White Castle or whatever was open and get a cubano sandwich or a Murder Burger. You know, something like that."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who was Voodoo Master Herb?"

PUPPET MASTER:"He was a B-Boy from Harlem.....145th Street. Actually, he was a Peacemaker, he was a Harlem Peacemaker and he started to hang out in the Bronx with me. There were only like maybe three cats from Harlem that I used to bring with me to Bronx River. Voodoo Master Herb was one of them. 1974, 1975 there wasn't too many cats from Harlem going over there unless they knew people. I was the only one that I know of....me and the other three cats that I used to take....that would go to Bronx River, in the heart of Zulu country. Back then that was unheard of."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were the other two persons from Harlem that you used to take to Bronx River with you?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ant Man and Kev. Ant Man was a B-Boy, Kev wasn't."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What are your top 5 breakbeats of all time?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ahhhhh! Top 5! Top 5! Number one....Baby Huey "Listen To Me", number two.....from James Brown.."Give It Up Or turn It Aloose", number three was "Apache", number four....Dynamic Corvettes "Funky Music Is The Thing".....number five is King Gerrsson "Doing The Do" ("Mandamentos Black"). Those are my top 5 records, especially "Doing The Do"! When Bam used to throw that on, we didn't know what the fuck that was but the beat was banging!!!!

SIR NORIN RAD:"So I guess you would say that Afrika Bambaataa was the DJ who had the illest breakbeats back then?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, he would play super crazy beats that you had never ever heard before. Crazy beats!!!! All the crazy beats you would hear at Bam's joints!  You would hear all the regular beats like "The Mexican", "Give It Up And Turn It Aloose" at other parties but when you went to Bambaataa you heard some exotic shit."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How would prepare yourself for jam while you were still at your house? What kind of clothes and cologne would you put on?"

PUPPET MASTER:"I knew I would be B-Boying so I would have on some Lee jeans, some Pro-Keds, probably a mockneck....shortsleeve 'cause I knew it would be getting hot in there. If it was really cold outside I would put on a longsleeve mockneck or a wool mockneck and I would have on either a bubble jacket or a Cortefiel coat. For a hat I would have on a wool Kangol, in the summertime I had a summer Kangol." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which cologne was popular back then?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Back then everybody was rocking that Royal Bain de Champaigne or Royal Copenhagen. Some might throw on Grey Flanell but everybody used to rock Royal Bain de Champaigne and Royal Copenhagen 'cause they sold them at A.J. Lester's on 125th Street."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How important was it to be original as a B-Boy? Was it okay to bite somebody else's moves?"

PUPPET MASTER:"You might get stomped out for doing that! That's true! You might get stomped out for biting somebody's moves. You had to come up with your own original shit, you know!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Okay, and how important was it to match the music with your moves back then? This is one of the questions that I ask every original B-Boy as I have noticed that nowadays many so-called B-Boys totally ignore the beat when they go off. That wasn't accepted during your era, was it? You also didn't go off to just any type of beat, right?" 

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh no, no, no!! See, the beat counts!! The nastier that drumbeat the better your moves will look! Back then the beat always counted. How can you B-Boy to a whack beat??? That's counterproductive! You gotta have a nice heavy beat, you understand? Bongos, drums, guitars....all that!!! I come from back in the days and the beat always counts. I understand what you're saying 'cause sometimes I watch these guys on youtube and their moves don't match the beat.  They're out of step! They're out of step! You had to be on time, on step with the beat! There's a lot of science that went into that. We didn't know about science at the time but we was calculating the rythm of the beat to our movement. Everything was insync with the beat, even when we did a freeze it was insync with the beat, when we came back up it was insync with the beat! That's it!  Going against the beat ain't really B-Boying."















 

                                   Interview with B-Boy Wil Ski (The Seven Deadly Sins)




                                                   

WIL SKI (THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS)

                                        conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders/Germany)

SIR NORIN RAD:"From which part of the Boogie Down Bronx are you originally?"

WIL SKI:"Kingsbridge Road & Morris Avenue. That's where Tracy 168 (legendary BX Style Writer) was from as well."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How old were you when you encountered B-Boying for the first time and what got you into it?"

WIL SKI:"I was about 16. We used to breakdance out in the streets...like block parties and we used to also battle in the hallways. My brother hasn't been mentioned....I don't know why my brother has never been mentioned... a lot of things have not been mentioned about us. He was the one who brought it (the dance) to us. He used to go to school where Flash, Caz and others use to hang around at and ended up learning from them. He use to come home like everyday with 12 inch records and use to be in his room practicing on his Technics turntables and Gemini mixer with a speaker at the window making tapes and we use to watch him. Every now and then he would play back the tape he had recorded and would bust a move here and there and so one day we asked him if he would teach us. He was like, "You're sure you wanna take a chance doing this? You might get hurt." We were intrigued by what we would see him do so we were like," Hell yeah . .!!!" So he began showing us the basics and we would practice while he would be DJing. He was the one that formed The Seven Deadly Sins."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What's your brother's name?"

WIL SKI:"His DJ name was Cool Sky." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were the members of the Seven Deadly Sins?"

WIL SKI:"It was seven of us. It was me, Lil Lep...at the time his name was Ray Ski, my other brother Reggie....we used to call him Reggie Reg. Then we had Benny B, we had P-Man, we had Sin Bad, we had Lil Flip Rock and my other brother Cool Sky. Then we had Fastbreak and Johnny Dee as our substitutes. Whenever one of us was missing Fastbreak was right there. We also had a mascot, my little sister Crystal Dee. May she rest peace! She was 6 years old and she was the mascot of the Seven Deadly Sins."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who was the president of The Seven Deadly Sins?"

WIL SKI:"The president of our crew was my brother, Cool Sky. The best B-Boy of the Seven Deadly Sins was Lil Lep, my partner. Whenever we battled against other crews we would let the other five (B-Boys of our crew) start it all because they weren't as skilled as we were and then me and Lil Lep would take over after that." 

B-Boy Ray Ski a.k.a Lil Lep (The Seven Deadly Sins)

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did your crew have something like a hang out spot?"

WIL SKI:"Yes, we used to go to Lil Lep's sister's house. We used to get high there, smoke some weed. Back then we also used to drink a vine called Night Train. We used to drink that with a little bit of weed and that's all she wrote. If we had to battle we would take it to the building next door which was my building or we would take it to the Family Force building which was basically the last stop for a lot of B-Boys from all over the Bronx who tried to battle us."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What's the story behind the Family Force building?"

WIL SKI:"The Family Force were the older guys from our block, they were like basically our bodyguards. They used to hang out in that building. So whenever we would be outside and people would come and want to battle us, we used to go into their building...the Family Force building..and we used to battle right in the hallway." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did you get your music from when these battles took place?"

WIL SKI:"We would have a boombox. My brother (Cool Sky) would bring his boombox with his mix tapes...we would throw it on and get busy!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"On what kind of a floor would these battles take place?"

WIL SKI:"Marble floor....That's another thing. When we started breakdancing in the late 1970ies/ early 1980ies we never practiced or had any battles on cardboard! We did that on the hallway marble floor or on the concrete street! We never did that cardboard stuff. That came afterwards. We would scrape up our elbows and have calluses on our shoulders from doing windmills."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would your brother DJ Cool Sky also throw parties in the streets back then?"

WIL SKI:"Yeah, we would close the block down, we would get permits. You know back then...especially in the summer....there was a block party everyday!  Everyday there was a block party somewhere or a house party somewhere. Most battles took place in the streets..at those block parties but when individuals like Crazy Legs and Lil Crazy Legs (The Rock Steady Crew)....they heard of us, we didn't know who they were........they came to us. They saw us out there, they asked about us, we told them who we were, they told us who they were and they told us that they wanted a battle. So we battled, we took it to the hallway being that they came to our block. Other individuals would do the same thing. They would come to our block and we battled."     

SIR NORIN RAD:"How were the winners of these battles determined back then? I guess back then there were no judges involved, were they?"

WIL SKI:"No, there were no judges but there was always a crowd, you know? Whenever there was a battle they would come. Whoever was out in the streets at that time we would let them know, "We're about to battle so and so." Then we'd go to the hallway and we'd do what we got to do. They (the crowd) would call it. Whoever they thought was the best they would call it."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did that battle against Crazy Legs and Lil Crazy Legs go down? Who took that one?"

WIL SKI:"I would say in that battle we basically came out on top. They had nice moves, especially Lil Crazy Legs......and, you know, we had ours! We always ended up like a tie. It would never be like a blowout or something like that. Nah! It was always like, "Damn! Next time we gotta do better!"  I guess they would think the same way. Next time they'd come they would have better moves and we would have better moves."

SIR NORIN RAD:"So you battled them more than once?"

WIL SKI:"We battled twice! We battled in the block parties one time...in Bainbridge Ave & 196th. We first battled in the Family Force building though, then we battled in Bainbridge."

Lil Crazy Legs (The Rock Steady Crew)

SIR NORIN RAD:"What were some of the block party locations on your side of the Bronx were B-Boying took place regularly?"

WIL SKI:"Most block parties that were real big were on Decatur Avenue, Bainbridge Avenue, Marion Avenue....Those were like the most favourite spots for block parties. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did your brother Cool Sky also DJ at those spots?"

WIL SKI:"Yeah, he would DJ there, too. He played on our block, too, on Morris Avenue."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What were some of the other DJs that played breakbeats for the B-Boys in that area?"

WIL SKI:"We had DJ Lil Chase, we had..DJ Will Rock...I think it was Will Rock...DJ Ronnie Ron."

SIR NORIN RAD:"In which year did the Seven Deadly Sins start?"

WIL SKI:"1979....in the summer of 1979."

SIR NORIN RAD:"I must say that I really dig that name. Who came up with it?"

WIL SKI:"My brother Cool Sky. His real name was Victor."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did he dance under the name of Cool Sky?"

WIL SKI:"Nah, when he started the crew he didn't breakdance. He just used to teach us. He was our DJ but he taught us how to dance. He laid the foundation down, put it that way and we took it from there."

SIR NORIN RAD:"I see. Now what kind of relationship did the Seven Deadly Sins have with the Floormasters who later on became the New York City Breakes and appeared in that famous movie "Beat Street" in 1984? Lil Lep became a part of them, right?"

WIL SKI:"Well, the Floormasters....we all went to school together. Pex, Chino, Matthew aka Glide Master who died in a car accident....we all went to school together. They weren't into breakdancing. It just so happened that they would go to parties and they would see us doing what we were doing and then they would imitate us in their block. One time we went by, we would see them doing that and we were like, "Oh shit, look at these guys doing it!" So we went over there and we were like, "We didn't know you was into this!" and they were like, "Nah, we're just practicing. Getting into it."  We gave them little lessons and they took it from there but we never thought that they would end up making a crew in the long run."  

SIR NORIN RAD:"Around which time did your crew the Seven Deadly Sins disband?"

WIL SKI:"I would say around 1981/82. Around 81/82 I turned into rapping and I turned into crime. The other individuals they went about their bussiness, they weren't showing up no more. So you know, it just like died as far as the Seven Deadly Sins was concerned. Lil Lep ended up getting with the Floormasters because he got bored by just being by himself or whatever and so he started practicing with them, teaching them little moves here, little moves there. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"What did the B-Boys of your era (late 1970s- early 1980s) wear?"

WIL SKI:"Back then most of our footgear was Adidas. Shelltops! Shelltops Adidas....all different colors! Lees (jeans).....different colors. It was always sweatshirts..if it was in the winter you had on a long sleeve sweatshirt with the colors in the back, in the summer you had on a short sleeve sweatshirt."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What about BVDs ?"

WIL SKI:"Yeah, BVDs, Paris.....first Paris.......that was the first ones....Paris. Then Paris went out of style and we would start wearing BVDs." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"How important was the aspect of Toprocking during your era?"

WIL SKI:"That was very important because that's the start of the battle. You start on top, you know you start from there. You do little moves...like me and Lil Lep used to have routines. I would do my moves like I would make a move like I shoot him and he would drop into one of our other members arms and they would throw him up and he would fly up, go down to the floor and start there....doing his breaking moves, going into his windmills or whatever he is going to do. But Uprocking was very important, that was very important!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Thank you! Could you please also describe the importance of the music to the B-Boys of your era?"

WIL SKI:"The breakbeats were very important. The beats were what made you do your moves. Like I said you start on the top then you go down to the floor but everything is always based on the music. You go according to the beats! Most of the times when we were going to battle we would know the DJ. So we would go to the DJ and let him know, "We're about to battle this crew. Put on this beat or put on that beat! Start like this!" and they would do what we asked them to do. But music played a very important part!" 

SIR NORIN RAD:"That was the time when DJs still had to have a strong soundsystem to rock a party. I was told that you could hear the beats from several blocks away when DJs set up in a park back then."

WIL SKI:"Hell yeah!!  You had to have the high power speakers. The baddest ones was Kool  Herc & The Herculords. You had to have a high power soundsytem so the B-Boys would FEEL the music. You gotta feel it, if you don't feel it you can't dance the way you want. You gotta feel that shit!! You have to have your heart beat to the music. That's what hypes you up!!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"So what would go through your mind back then when you and your crew were in the streets and all of a sudden you started hearing those funky breakbeats ?"

WIL SKI:"We would be like,"Where is this beat coming from???" We would follow it. "It's over here!!! Let's go!" So everybody would rush to that spot. It was crazy!!! It was crazy back then!!! You'd hear the music and you'd just follow it and once you'd follow it you would see crowds and before you know it you would be right where the jam was at."

SIR NORIN RAD:"So flyers weren't always needed to draw huge crowds to a party?"

WIL SKI:"You also had flyers to let you know what was going on. Most of the flyers were for clubs like Harlem World or the T-Connection. You'd see the flyers..."Oh, Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five are going to be at the T-Connection!" or "Grandwizard Theodore & The Fantastic Five are going to be at Harlem World!"but when it came to block parties or house parties you'd just follow the music. You'd just follow the crowd. You would bump into people, "Yo, where's the jam at?"  "It's over here in Bainbridge & 196th!" "Oh, word?!?" "It's in the house or in the street?" "No, it's in the basement!" "Oh shit! Word?!?!" So you would go there and once you heard the music you would follow it."

SIR NORIN RAD:"So did you also attend those parties at the T-Connection and check out all these various DJs with their MC crews?"

WIL SKI:"Hell yeah, that's how I started rapping. Listening to them, going home and visualizing myself  doing what they was doing and I would start writing my rhymes down and then I would throw on one of my brother's tapes and practice. He didn't know that I was doing that. He thought I was just breakdancing but I was transforming." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"I have spoken to a B-Boy called Lil Boy Keith....."

WIL SKI:"I know exactly who he is. Lil Boy Keith from the Zulu Kings. They were the first B-Boy crew."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Yes, and he told me about a very large Puerto Rican B-Boy crew called TDK...."

WIL SKI:"The Disco Kids...."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Right, and they would throw parties in abandoned buildings. Creating their own little club houses. Are you familiar with them?"

WIL SKI:"Yeah, we would go to their jams, too!  We would do the same thing. We would steal the power from the light poles in the streets and run it into the basement of an abandoned building. You know how many times police ran up into our houses and surrounded the whole place and took my brother's equipment and records?  Ah man, everybody running, trying to get away. -That's how it was back then. Everywhere! Creston, Morris, Davidson.......there were a lot of abandoned buildings there....Decatur....we would get in there, get into the basement, clean it up real good, run the power in there from a light pole and let the people know, "Yo! We're throwing a jam! We're charging 1$ for guys and 1$ for girls." Have you ever heard of this guy....I forgot his name...he's a known DJ today...from the Bronx...his nickname when we was growing up together was Poochie....he started DJing and he started imitating Flash and he was nice! He's black but lightskin."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Are you talking about Kid Capri?"

WIL SKI:"Kid Capri! His name is Poochie. I had him throwing house parties for me and he was from Kingsbridge Terrace and I also used to live down there at the time. So when I wanted to throw a house party I would go to him. I would let him know,"We're charging 1$ for guys and 1$ for girls and we gonna give the girls one joint for free." So basically you're really selling your weed to the girls, you know what I'm saying? (we're both laughing)" 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What would you do with the furniture in these buildings?"

WIL SKI:"If it was a house party in somebody's apartment we would take out all the furniture from the living room and put it into the room connected to it. You gotta take everything out. It gotta be completely empty. The DJ equipment would be in the kitchen and the windows would be open. If it was to the front or to the back, it didn't matter, you would hear the music."  

SIR NORIN RAD:"I guess the DJ would play all these legendary breakbeats at these parties like "Apache" or "It's Just Begun"?"

WIL SKI:"Hell yeah!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"What about other types of music?"

WIL SKI:"They would throw on Hustle music, Disco music. Yeah, you know they would throw that on because you got different crowds. You got people who wanna hear that and wanna dance to that. So the DJ gotta throw both in and you may throw on a little Salsa. Throw on a little Salsa so the DJ can get a little break and the B-Boys and MCs can get their shit together, get their heads right. You already know when the music shuts off and you hear the Masters Of The Ceremonies, the MCs doing their introduction. You already know what's coming!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"What about slow music? I was told that at Kool Herc's parties there would always be one segment of the party where the DJs would throw on slow joints, they would dim the lights and the guys would do the 500 with the girls."

WIL SKI:"Yo, you're giving me a flashback! Word! When that shit comes on, B-Boys turn into lovers (chuckles). The slow jams gotta play a role, too in the jam. It ain't gonna be just B-Boy music all night. You gotta have that, you gotta have slow jams, you gotta have Hustle music, you gotta have a little Salsa, you know? Even Jamaican music! You gotta have a variety of music at your jam. Mind you, a party in the street might start at 9.30 / 10.00 o'clock. Sometimes they started even earlier and they won't end till 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning. It only ends when the police comes, "Hey, hey, you gotta break that shit up!" Most parties in the streets didn't have permits."
  SIR NORIN RAD:"When you were brought up as a child did you learn how to dance Salsa? Did that influence your B-Boy skills?"

WIL SKI:"I was brought up with dancing Salsa but I wasn't too thrilled with that. You know, I was raised around it but I wasn't going for that. We also danced the Hustle."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Is it true that back then there was always the danger of having to deal with stick up kids or with people who tried to step to you at jams? Was that something that played a role at those jams in your part of the BX?"

WIL SKI:"Everywhere! Not just Kingsbridge (Ave)....wherever you went, wherever there was a party whether it was in the streets, whether it was in a house, whether it was in a school...wherever there was a party there were stick-up kids. That's why a lot of us ended up getting strapped (carrying weapons)."   

SIR NORIN RAD:"You have mentioned Jimmy Lee (founder of the Rock Steady Crew) quite often in our previous conversations. What is your relationship with him?"

WIL SKI:"That's my boy! I go see him I take care. I just finished speaking to him before I had this interview with you. That's my boy right there!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"So I guess you met him long before that battle against Crazy Legs and Lil Crazy Legs took place?"

WIL SKI:"That's correct! I battled him, too."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did that battle go down? Please elaborate!"

WIL SKI:"We bumped heads.....Jimmy Lee was originally a member of TBB (The Bronx Boys). He like most guys from 183rd street was affiliated with TBB. I hung out there, too. So when Jimmy Lee was with TBB I ended up battling him. TBB was close to us so we would always bump heads and whenever we bumped heads we would battle. Didn't matter where it would be at. It could be Fordham Road...if we bumped heads there, we would take it to a side street and we'd battle! Even with no music!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Damn!!!! How did these battles start?"

WIL SKI:"It was probably words like,"Yo! What's up, man?!? Claiming you do this, claiming you do that. What you wanna do?!?! You wanna do this right now or what!?" You know, and we would take it from there. Mom would be tight when we got home. Clothes all messed up. "What were y'all doing???" Remember like I said we weren't doing it on cardboard, we were doing it on concrete. So when we got home our pants would be ripped, our shirts all messed up, dirty. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did that battle against Jimmy Lee take place at?"

WIL SKI:"We battled on Davidson Ave off of Fordham Road." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"You mentioned that the legendary Style Writer Tracy 168 lived very close to you. Did he know you and your crew?"

WIL SKI:"Of course. Yes, most definetely."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you write as well? I have heard that many Puerto Rican B-Boys were also Writers like Spy (Crazy Commanders) would write Space 1000 and he would go bombing with Trace 2 (The Bronx Boys)."

WIL SKI:"No, I didn't write but a lot of members from the Seven Deadly Sins like Benny B and P-Man they use to do Graffiti.  They used to go bombing, throwing up their names and stuff like that but I wasn't a Writer."

B-Boy Wil Ski (The Seven Deadly Sins)