Interview with B-Boy Puppet Master (The Shaka Zulus)

                                                         

                                                             B-Boy Puppet Master (The Shaka Zulus)


                                      conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders/Germany)


SIR NORIN RAD:"Where were you born and raised at?"

PUPPET MASTER:"I was born in the Bronx.....176th Street & Bathgate Avenue. That's in the 1960's. I kinda got two histories because I grew up in the Bronx till the age of thirteen and then in 1973 my mother moved to Harlem.....149th Street between Broadway and Riverside. I basically continued growing up over there but I always went back and forth to the Bronx because my grandmother lived in the Bronx, so I had family in the Bronx. It was always going back and forth to the Bronx. I even went to high school in the Bronx."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which high school did you attend over there?" 

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, that was Samuel Gompers. 1974, 1975 I went to Samuel Gompers on Southern Boulevard. At that time it was an all boys school. Most of the schools at that time in the Bronx and Manhattan were either all boys or all girls schools. Mostly vocational and technical schools. In my first year there I met Afrika Zambu through Tyrone Butler aka Pase 161 from Soundview. Zambu was Bambaataa's first DJ partner. Back in the 1970s everybody had a second DJ. It was Grandmaster Flash and Disco Bee, it was Kool DJ Herc and DJ Timmy Tim and at that time it was Afrika Bambaata and Zambu."

SIR NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard huge parts of the Bronx were divided into different gang territories in the early 1970s and you told me you joined a gang called the Peacemakers. How did that come about?" 

PUPPET MASTER:"That's true. 1971 I joined the Peacemakers. I was eleven so I was a Baby Peacemaker. You had the Baby Peacemakers, The Young Peacemakers...and the Peacemakers. From 1968 to 1973 it was all gang culture, you know?"

SIR NORIN RAD:"What was it that one had to do in order to join the Peacemakers?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Sometimes you had to go through the Apache Line. Sometimes you might have to fight a 1 on 1,  a 2 on 1 or a 3 on 1. It depends on who the person was. If the person looked kinda shakey then they would tell him, "Do the Apache Line!" If the brother looked like he could hold his own it wasn't no Apache Line it was just, "Come on in!" With me it wasn't no Apache Line, I fought the vice president and the warlord and they let me in."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What did it mean to be a Peacemaker? Did you have to wear specific colors?"  

PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, we all wore colors. Ours was the peace sign on the back. When the Peacemakers first started in 1971 it was a peace sign and it may have the crossed swords or  crossed 44s (guns) 'cause actually a peacemaker is a 44 pistol. A peacemaker, you know?  So yeah, we had colors, a top to bottom rocker and our symbol was the peace sign."


 

Colors of the Peacemakers

SIR NORIN RAD:"How many divisions did the Peacemakers have back then?"

PUPPET MASTER:"We had altogether 36 divisions. We had Peacemakers in the Bronx. Marmion Ave & Tremont...that's where our club house was at......Lambert, Uptown....Gun Hill Road, Edenwald Projects. We als had Peacemakers in Harlem....Douglas Projects, 145th, 144th, 143rd, 142nd Street & Broadway all that was Peacemakers' turf (territory) back then."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Talking to Kusa from the Zulu Masters I heard that what actually got him into Breaking was watching the Black Spades doing  their specific dance at Bronx River. Did the Peacemakers also have dancers among them? Would they dance at their club house or at parties?  What did their dance look like?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, there was dancing going on. We would have Peacemaker parties or sometimes even when the Black Spades gave a party we would come to their party. Or the Black Spades would come to a Peacemaker party. They were our allies. Yeah, they would be dancing and there would be the gestures, you understand, the waving of the hands. They might do a little spin, kick a leg out...it wasn't going on the floor at that time."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did the Peacemakers also have an anthem? I was told that the anthem of the Black Spades was James Brown's "Soul Power". Whenever they would gather before a rumble they would listen to that song and chant, "Spade Power!" instead of "Soul Power!""

PUPPET MASTER:" Right, right. Ours was Funkadelics "Standing On The Verge Of Getting It On" and then we also had "Potential" (by Jimmy Castor). We would say,"Makers, maker, maker, maker, make" to the rhythm of the bass in the beginning of that song."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you recall a DJ by the name of Lay Lay who was down with the Fun City Crew? Many Puerto Rican B-Boys from such crews as The Bronx Boys or Rockwell Association told me that they went to his jams and that he was a Peacemaker once, too."

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh you're talking about Peacemaker Lay Lay. Peacemaker Lay Lay was the warlord of the Peacemakers. Peacemaker Lay Lay was an original. First of all I'd like to say,"May Allah be pleased with him!"  because this brother passed away about three or four years ago.  He was the warlord of the Peacemakers, the supreme warlord of the Peacemakers. Later on he formed Fun City. Fun City is an extension, like a subdivision of the Peacemakers. They were still Peacemakers, they just called it Fun City Crew. You understand? Like the Casanovas...most of the Casanovas were Black Spades. I know DJ Lay Lay very well, he used to play in the park over there..... 129 school yard by the pool."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Mapes...."

PUPPET MASTER:"That's right! Mapes Pool!!! He had that thing packed!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"So I guess you also know his partners DJ Stuff and DJ Apache?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, yes. All this was in the area of  Southern Boulevard, Mapes, Marmion...... Our clubhouse was two blocks down from Mapes pool."

SIR NORIN RAD:"....and the Peacemakers always had Lay Lay's back whenever he would throw a party, correct?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, for sure! For sure! Whenever Lay Lay came out, we were always there. Matter of fact Prince Whipper Whip used to MC for Lay Lay at one time. Me and Prince Whipper Whip grew up together. He also lived on 149th Street between Broadway and Riverside in 1974, 1975, then he moved to the Bronx on Valentine Avenue and became Prince Whipper Whip."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you recall the first time you saw people going off?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Okay, so now we are talking about 1973/74. My brother Mike used to go to a lot of Kool Herc parties and he used to come back telling me about this and that. How he had seen this guy doing this, how had seen this guy doing that and he would do some moves in our house and stuff. But then as I got a little older and as I started to go out, my first jam that I went to was Over The Dover."

SIR NORIN RAD:"DJ Smokey!"

PUPPET MASTER:"Right, DJ Smokey was playing there and that's where I saw B-Boys going off! They wasn't actually doing floormoves, they was rocking on the top. But then the following year I went to another party on 183rd Street & Webster Avenue......the P.A.L.....a Herc joint and they played "Shaft In Africa" and I saw this guy start spinning on the floor. That was the first time that I ever saw somebody spin on the floor! I used to call it The Spinning Top 'cause the way he did it. He used to spin...where he started from he spun so fast that he winded up on the same spot and then he spun back up with his arms crossed."     

SIR NORIN RAD:"Could you please describe the atmosphere at those parties?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ah man! First you can hear the music when you come off the train station 'cause when you come off the train station on 174th Street the movie theatre is right there. So right away you felt the vibe! Then you came down the steps, the movie theatre was The Dover and then to the left was a little door, you had to walk up the steps one flight and that's where Over The Dover was. Smokey was there and the guys were doing their thing! Man, listen! The vibe was very, very positive! You could feel the energy! By the time you got off the train and you got to the door towards the steps...you felt the energy." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"How would the beats affect your soul at those jams?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ah man, when you heard "Sex Machine" I mean "Give It Up Or Turn It A Loose"......goosebumps!!!! It gave you goosebumps! Especially when I started going over to Bambaataa joints because the way he was playing his music and his system...you could hear all the bongos and the drums and all those instruments. He had a bad system!!! I mean Herc had the Herculoids system and it was real nice but Bam??? Ahhhhh man!!!!!! The vibe I described at Over The Dover....."


SIR NORIN RAD:"Yeah?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Bam's vibe was ten times that! It was ten times that! Because...let me tell you...going to Bronx River, Bronxdale, just that side of town itself was crazy. A lot of people back then was kinda scared to go to Bronx River. One thing I gotta say and shout outs to Bronx River, Bronxdale, Soundview, Monroe, Lafayette everybody over there, they always showed me much love because they had respect for the B-Boy game. I used to always come out of Harlem and burn the shit out of cats, you understand? And they had respect for the game. It wasn't all about they jumping you or whatnot, if you was nice with your skills you could hang. If you got burned back then you had to leave the party because they would snap on you all night."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What caused you to go there? Was it because of your cousin Rodney B aka Puppetmaster #2? I'm asking this question because Cholly Rock (The Zulu Kings) told me that in the mid 1970ies Afrika Bamabaataa was like a mysterious figure to most people in the Bronx, not too many outside of the Soundview section knew who he was and as you said many were also scared to go to Bronx River."

PUPPET MASTER:"That's true!!! Yeah, it was that mysterious, dangerous type of vibe that
emanated from that place (laughs). But yes, my cousin Rodney B was from Lafayette. But also my best friend when I went to Samuel Gompers High School, Tyrone Butler, we used to write graffiti on the trains together.....he was from Soundview, him and his brothers Craig and Mike, they were all B-Boys. He more or less introduced me to Bronx River 'cause he started talking about Baby Huey and Yellow Sunshine and this and that and all these B-Boy joints. He had given me a 8-track......that's how far back that was.....he gave me a 8-track, not a cassette, a 8-track with B-Boy joints on it. So I used to listen to that, I used to practice in the house and then one day he showed me a ticket...it was on a Friday or Saturday......it was a ticket, not a flyer, a actual ticket....and the ticket said,"DJ Afrika Bambaataa versus Tommy The Turntable Magician" and it said,"Zulu Nation!".  I was just getting hyped because of the way it sounded. I said, "Damn!" and back then it only costed 1.50 $ to get in. So I go to the party and that's my first time.....I went off by myself...first Pase (Tyrone) went off  and then I went off by myself. From there I started going to (JHS) 123, Ronnie's Disco Inferno, Bronx River Center, in the summertime in the back of Bronx River, Rosedale Park....... just that whole area, I stayed on that side of town coming from Harlem and like I said they always showed me love. Actually, I was the only one from Harlem coming to the Bronx and burning the shit out of cats and wasn't getting in no static."   

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which definitely means a lot since Bronx River was notorious for being a tough place."

PUPPET MASTER:"Correct. Now like I said before if you came to Bronx River and you knew people or people knew you from back in the days or if you carried yourself in a certain way, nobody would mess with you BUT if you came to Bronx River and you didn't know nobody and you looked like an easy prey....you know, the wolves are always out!!! Sometimes you might leave without your coat, sometimes you might leave without your sneakers, you understand? Walking through Bronx River especially when they were jamming in the back in the summertime you could hear James Brown or Baby Huey as soon as you walked towards it in the projects. The vibe was just......oh my god!!!!!! Big ups to all the Zulu Kings.....big ups to Squirpy (Shaka), Ahmed, Artie J (Aziz)...of course Cholly Rock...all of them were top notch B-Boys so if they gave you your respect then that's what it was!"  

SIR NORIN RAD:"What made you pick up that name Puppet Master?"

PUPPET MASTER:"(chuckles) There used to be a cartoon...The Lone Ranger.....that used to come on and there was a villain called The Puppet Master.... that was an influence. Back then I was a little double jointed, you understand? The way that I danced, I was able to do certain contortions and spins and fold myself up and spin out of it and come up on my toes. I would also act like I pulled myself up by my shirt, like as if I was controlled by a puppet master or I would let my arm hang and swing like a puppet on a string. That's where I got the name Puppet Master from and it stuck to me. And then my cousin Rodney B....I taught him, he started practicing with me.....he used to go to 123 with Popeye and Wade (B-Boys of the Shaka Zulus) and all of them. He was a little younger than me but he knew Wade because he lived on their side of town an he would go,"I'm Puppet Master #2!!" I said,"Okay, alright! You're Puppet Master #2!" But he became a pretty good B-Boy."    

B-Boy Puppet Master and his cousin Rodney B aka Puppet Master #2 (The Shaka Zulus)

SIR NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard so far in the beginning of B-Boying most B-Boys would do certain routines like James Bond would do....."


PUPPET MASTER:"The Get Smart!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Right, the Get Smart...."

PUPPET MASTER:"Everybody had their signature moves. James Bond had his Telephone routine...Me I had a number of signature moves...I had my spins, I would dig the grave......"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Damn!"

PUPPET MASTER:"I would measure you up, do The Robot and measure you up. Then I would measure the ground, get my shovel, dig the grave, right? Do a nice move and then... BOOM!!.....lay you in the grave. Then I would cross my arms and rise from the grave. Other B-Boys would also do The Rise From The Grave but mine had a whole story attached to it. I would measure you up like I had a measuring tape, then measure the ground, dig the grave, then I'd jump into the grave but with my arms crossed, lay you in the grave and then I would rise from the grave. We all had signature moves, like Ahmed (The Zulu Masters), he had the Jerry Lewis and he would do the motorcycle. Everybody had their signature moves. Squirpy (aka Shaka of the Zulu Masters)....I don't know if you have ever seen the Shaw Brothers, the karate movies, where they would jump up in the air and then turn around and it's like a backkick in the air. Squirpy was good at that 'cause Squirpy looked like he could jump like maybe 4 or 5 feet up in the air and turn around and do the kick and land on the ground. Artie J (Aziz of the Zulu Masters) was nice!!! All these brothers over there was nice with it. "    

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you also have a routine which entailed those Puppet-On-A-String type moves?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yes, yes! If it was major competiton that's when I would bring out the Puppet Master moves."  

                                                                      

One of the Puppet Master's evil puppets (from the Lone Ranger cartoon series)

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did you become acquainted with all the Zulu Masters from Bronx River?"

PUPPET MASTER:"I saw all of them at 123. At that time they had on their snow suits with two stripes. It was winter time, they had on their snow suits with two stripes and those goggles and stuff and I had on the bubble jacket. That's actually the first time I saw the whole Zulu tribe. That's after I went to Bronx River, at 123 I saw everybody."

SIR NORIN RAD:"I see. Do you recall how you got introduced to the Shaka Zulus? Did that happen through Rodney B?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, because like I said they all lived in the same neighbourhood.  He knew Popeye, he went to school with him. He knew Wade, he knew all of them. The Shaka Zulus were the younger crew that came after the Zulu Kings. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"What do you remember about your time with the Shaka Zulus?"

PUPPET MASTER:"We all used to link up. You know, at that time none of us was really down with a specific crew. We was more like....how would you say...outlaw B-Boys, we didn't belong to no crew, we were just nice with our shit. Sometimes I would come to a party and I would see Wade (founder of the Shaka Zulus). We would all be standing there and we would see other B-Boys going off so I would tell Wade to go get'em, to go and eat them up.  Then Wade would come out and I'd jump in and eat them up. Then Rodney B. would jump in and eat them up. We were just forming a bond! We were looking for anybody that didn't belong in that neighbourhood and was trying to B-Boy. We would go off and burn the shit out of'em. That's more or less how Wade formulated the Shaka Zulus. It was a coalition! It was a coalition because we wasn't really down with no crew. We was just nice with our shit and we would come to the parties and dance! And I used to see Wade at all the parties.....123, Ronny's Disco Inferno, Bronx River and then we started to hang out. You know, me and Wade we got real tight. I was caught in the Blackout in 1977, I was stuck over there in the Blackout and the following day Kool Herc was in the back of the center and that's when I challenged Ahmed to a B-Boy battle in the back of Bronx River Center. Everybody that was there said it was one of the baddest battles in the history of B-Boying. A lot of people said that Ahmed came out a little bit over me, you know, but listen...history was already made when we did our thing. That was a hell of a battle! You can ask anybody that was there...Wade was there, Cholly Rock was there, all of the Zulus was there. People were climbing trees, climbing poles." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"So this battle took place outside, right?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Right, outside of the center in the back they had a little stage where Bambaataa used to set his equipment up and there was a little circle and that's where we all used to dance. And let me just say this for the record...it wasn't no cardboard, it was strictly concrete!!  It was strictly concrete and Pro-Keds sneakers. It wasn't no elbow pads, no helmets, nothing like that, you had to know what you was doing."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Do you remember the songs that were played during that
battle between you and Ahmed?"


PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, that was "Get Into Something".....Herc played "Get Into Something" by the Isley Brothers, then he played Baby Huey and to top it off he went to "Apache"...we went off to three or four records....that was one hell of a battle! It was me, Reggie Wells, Theron...they was from over by Crotona. They happened to be there and they helped me out. (laughs) Wade was on my side and Cholly Rock and them was on the other side.  Squirpy, Ahmed, Artie J they was all on the other side but when the smoke cleared and all was over they all came to me and shook my hand."

Ahmed (The Zulu Masters)

 
SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you ever officially join the Zulu Nation?"

PUPPET MASTER:"After that battle Ahmed told me to come to Bam's house the next day.  So I came to Bam's house the next day, it was a a long line of people standing in front of Bam's door to sign that book. I came there, I stood in the back of the line. Ahmed saw me, he called me towards the front. I signed the book and they gave me a card and that's all it was." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which other DJs used to play breakbeats for the B-Boys at 123 besides Afrika Bambaataa?"

PUPPET MASTER:"At any given time you'd go to 123 you could hear Mario,  you could hear Kool Dee, you could hear Tex. Even Breakout came to 123 a couple of times."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Speaking of Mario what were the most notable B-Boys out of Bronxdale that would dance at his parties?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, those were some good brothers! First and foremost I'd like to say,"Rest In Peace!" to my man Stearling. He passed away maybe about six or seven years ago. He was a good brother! Stearling, Cleamont, Cookie all of them were from Bronxdale. Mike G, you had Lil Black Jack over there from the third section of Bronxdale. All of them was good to me. Like I said I used to go with a girl over there in Bronxdale. That's where we used to hang! You had B-Girls...Maggie, Lilo...those were DJ Tex's sisters. And then in Bronx River there was Trina." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What kind of snacks and drinks were being consumed at those parties? I hope that's not a stupid question but I have always wondered about this."

PUPPET MASTER:"Nah, nah, that's not a stupid question. Before you got to the party you better get yourself a beer or a Malt Duck or that Nighttrain or whatever. White Castle was right across the street from 123. Anytime you wanted something to munch on or something to drink you would get your stuff from there. Bronx River...I never saw them selling no punch or nothing you always had to go to the store before you got there but as things progressed....with  places like the Audubon Ballroom, Ronnie's Disco Inferno, Hunts Point Palace... there you could buy a punch or get some water. Back in the early days you had to BYOBB - bring your own brown bag. Everybody went to White Castle for munchies after the party."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What exactly are the "munchies"?

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh, being at a party sometimes we would be smoking Chunky Black. Chunky Black was the weed that we were smoking at the time. So we had Acapulco Gold, we had the Chunky Black, we had the Panamanian Red, you understand? Smoking all that entailed getting hungry a.k.a the munchies. After we was puffed we would get the munchies so we would go to White Castle or whatever was open and get a cubano sandwich or a Murder Burger. You know, something like that."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who was Voodoo Master Herb?"

PUPPET MASTER:"He was a B-Boy from Harlem.....145th Street. Actually, he was a Peacemaker, he was a Harlem Peacemaker and he started to hang out in the Bronx with me. There were only like maybe three cats from Harlem that I used to bring with me to Bronx River. Voodoo Master Herb was one of them. 1974, 1975 there wasn't too many cats from Harlem going over there unless they knew people. I was the only one that I know of....me and the other three cats that I used to take....that would go to Bronx River, in the heart of Zulu country. Back then that was unheard of."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were the other two persons from Harlem that you used to take to Bronx River with you?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ant Man and Kev. Ant Man was a B-Boy, Kev wasn't."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What are your top 5 breakbeats of all time?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Ahhhhh! Top 5! Top 5! Number one....Baby Huey "Listen To Me", number two.....from James Brown.."Give It Up Or turn It Aloose", number three was "Apache", number four....Dynamic Corvettes "Funky Music Is The Thing".....number five is King Gerrsson "Doing The Do" ("Mandamentos Black"). Those are my top 5 records, especially "Doing The Do"! When Bam used to throw that on, we didn't know what the fuck that was but the beat was banging!!!!

SIR NORIN RAD:"So I guess you would say that Afrika Bambaataa was the DJ who had the illest breakbeats back then?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Yeah, he would play super crazy beats that you had never ever heard before. Crazy beats!!!! All the crazy beats you would hear at Bam's joints!  You would hear all the regular beats like "The Mexican", "Give It Up And Turn It Aloose" at other parties but when you went to Bambaataa you heard some exotic shit."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How would prepare yourself for jam while you were still at your house? What kind of clothes and cologne would you put on?"

PUPPET MASTER:"I knew I would be B-Boying so I would have on some Lee jeans, some Pro-Keds, probably a mockneck....shortsleeve 'cause I knew it would be getting hot in there. If it was really cold outside I would put on a longsleeve mockneck or a wool mockneck and I would have on either a bubble jacket or a Cortefiel coat. For a hat I would have on a wool Kangol, in the summertime I had a summer Kangol." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which cologne was popular back then?"

PUPPET MASTER:"Back then everybody was rocking that Royal Bain de Champaigne or Royal Copenhagen. Some might throw on Grey Flanell but everybody used to rock Royal Bain de Champaigne and Royal Copenhagen 'cause they sold them at A.J. Lester's on 125th Street."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How important was it to be original as a B-Boy? Was it okay to bite somebody else's moves?"

PUPPET MASTER:"You might get stomped out for doing that! That's true! You might get stomped out for biting somebody's moves. You had to come up with your own original shit, you know!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Okay, and how important was it to match the music with your moves back then? This is one of the questions that I ask every original B-Boy as I have noticed that nowadays many so-called B-Boys totally ignore the beat when they go off. That wasn't accepted during your era, was it? You also didn't go off to just any type of beat, right?" 

PUPPET MASTER:"Oh no, no, no!! See, the beat counts!! The nastier that drumbeat the better your moves will look! Back then the beat always counted. How can you B-Boy to a whack beat??? That's counterproductive! You gotta have a nice heavy beat, you understand? Bongos, drums, guitars....all that!!! I come from back in the days and the beat always counts. I understand what you're saying 'cause sometimes I watch these guys on youtube and their moves don't match the beat.  They're out of step! They're out of step! You had to be on time, on step with the beat! There's a lot of science that went into that. We didn't know about science at the time but we was calculating the rythm of the beat to our movement. Everything was insync with the beat, even when we did a freeze it was insync with the beat, when we came back up it was insync with the beat! That's it!  Going against the beat ain't really B-Boying."