Interview with the Original DJ Kool Joe  ( The M&M Crew) 




                                                       

DJ Kool Joe (The M&M Crew)

NORIN RAD:"Where in the Bronx did you grow up at?"

DJ KOOL JOE:" I grew up in the South Bronx...the Tremont area...Eastside.. Tremont area...West Farms area."

NORIN RAD:"And the specific name of that place where you lived at was Lambert Houses, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes! Yes! The Lambert Houses...We had Lambert Houses and then we also  had Bronx River which was another Hiphop location..ummh...maybe..walking distance probably 15 minutes...15-20 minutes...Southern Boulevard..there we had another location where we would have Hiphop parties."

Lambert Houses

NORIN RAD:"Alright, now what was your first encounter with B-Boying?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh man! Well, my brother....my big brother...he used to hang out with a guy  named Andre....he was called One Eyed Andre and another guy named Shawn and another guy named Ray....and they used to go to Kool Herc's parties and then they used to come home. They used to B-Boy in front of a mirror...before going to a Kool Herc party and I used to sit in the room and watch them and then I began B-Boy and I got me a little B-Boy Crew..we were called Kool Joe & The Oreos....We had evolved over into another style of Breaking..My brother and them... when they were B-Boying they wouldn't hit the floor back then."

NORIN RAD:"They were mainly Top Rocking, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Right! Right! It was Freestyle Top Rock....and then it evolved and that's when I got involved in it...that's when they started hitting the floor and doing the spins and whatnot.."

NORIN RAD:"And so your crew was named after those Oreo cookies?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yeah! Kool Joe and The Oreos! (laughs)"

NORIN RAD: "Okay, and who were the members of The Oreos?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"We had Hutch...DJ Scooter...well, he became DJ Scooter...these guys were B-Boying with me and we evolved into DJing and MCing. The same guys..we had Hutch, Scooter...a guy named Count..we called him Count..his name was Jeff Count...Then we had a guy named Easy E...he also became one of my MCees." 

NORIN RAD:"Now as far as I know the real first generation B-Boys used to do a lot of routines when they were dancing.....like routines and doing characters. Was that something that your brother Morris (May he Rise In Paradise) and One Eyed Andre used to as well?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Right!!!! Yes! They used to dance....what would you say...pretty much in a choreographed way.  At the same time....doing the same moves, you know? I used to watch them in the living room before they to went out to a Kool Herc party..they was getting ready....I was too young to go out then. And they would get their clothes out the cleaners and change their clothes and my mom had this big mirror in the living room covering the whole wall.  They would practice their routines before they went out."

NORIN RAD:"I'm glad that you have mentioned One Eyed Andre because this name keeps popping up again and again. I heard Fuji (The D-Squad) one of Grandmaster Flash's elite B-Boys mentioning him among many others. What kind of guy was One Eyed Andre and what was your relationship with him? Oh, where did that name come from?"

DJ KOOL JOE:" Oh, One Eyed Andre was a great guy! Actually Andre..we were in the same neighbourhood before moving to Lambert. I knew him before he moved to Lambert Houses..His eye...he was struck in the eye with a lead pencil and his eye was pretty much..it wasn't out...just grey....he couldn't see out of it...I moved to one side of Lambert which was on 180th street..me and my family...his family lived on 1026 which was across the street and they lived on the second floor and he was a very good guy..humble...Andre was very humble and he was also a great singer. He could sing his tail off. Yeah, good humble guy...everybody loved Andre. He was a very good dancer...a veeeeery good dancer! All his moves were on top! He never hit the floor though..and I used to mimic them before I started B-Boying with my crew...I used to mimic them so I LEARNT TO DANCE ON TOP FIRST before I started to hit the floor...so I kinda evolved with it."


NORIN RAD:"What kind of routine or move was One Eyed Andre famous for?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"He was famous for that leg swing. He would take one leg and he would rock it from the back to the front and he would do top body movements at the same time. This was one of his signature moves."

NORIN RAD:"I see....and I guess your brother, Andre and them would also dress up fly when they went out to party, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Ah man, what are you talking about, man??!!!! (EXCITED) You're talking about Playboys and Mercury pants.....and AJ Lester... Cortefiel Coats, come man!!! We're talking about Mocknecks...yo, we're talking about double knits. They shopped a lot in Harlem on 125th street at a store called AJ Lester. If you were fly you shopped at AJ Lester's!!! That's what they said back then,"If you're fly you shop at AJ Lester!" So they stayed  clean, man.. they stayed clean!"



NORIN RAD:"It is interesting to see that within your family the evolution of Breaking is quite evident as your brother Morris danced exclusively on top and then you followed him also taking the danceform to the floor. Would you also dress like your brother or would you rock different kind of gear?"

DJ Kool Joe:"Well, it was a little different for us. We looked fly but we wouldn't dress...we were a different kind of fly. When I danced I danced in...do you remember the space jackets? The old space jackets? They were all silver like you were going to the moon...yeah, we danced in stuff like that...you know, hoodies, Adidas sweatpants, Lee Jeans, Pro-Keds....until I got a little older and then I started dressing pretty much like my brother. You know, and he was like a father figure to me and he started to buy a lot of clothes for me as well. "

NORIN RAD: "So around which time where you and the Oreos in full effect in terms of Breaking?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"We're talking about 1977, 1978."


NORIN RAD:"Thank you! And which were some of the venues that you would dance at back then?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh man, me and my crew we were coming to battle everybody. Wherever there was a party we're showing up. We're coming to get'em! You know we were going to Bronx River parties and there was a guy called Beaver (legendary B-Boy from The Little Zulu Kings) who was a great dancer and there was also a couple of other guys out there that were great. Bambaataa would be rocking...Apache was the number one song... and whoever was dancing they would open up the circle a little bit more when we were coming and we would just dive on in!!! And they would save me for last! The Oreos went first and then when our opponents brought out their baddest dancer that's when I came out and did my thing. We just wanted to have fun and that's we did! We had fun! We came home and talked about it all week.. in school and stuff like that. Actually, I was a tiny bit older than the rest of the crew and we would talk about it in the neighbourhood 'cause you know when we'd come out the house we'd come out to hang with each other and we would just talk about it, you know?! And we pretty much had our fans in the neighbourhood that loved us and they would circle around us  and hear our stories about what happened at the parties. We lived and breathed it, man! We'd come outside....and we'd come out with our boombox and hang out and dance in front of the building at night and we'd have a big circle and we would have other B-Boys coming over from Bronx River or B-Boys  from Castle Hill or from 800 Southern Boulevard that wanted to battle us right there! And we would do the same thing...come to their neighbourhood just as well and just jump in the circle and battle!"

NORIN RAD:"Okay, could you explain to me please where those beats came from that you were blasting from your boombox at those late night B-Boy sessions?"


DJ KOOL JOE:"Well, we would go to parties to record those beats. We would just go to Bambaataa's parties at Bronx River or wherever he was partying and record his music. Or sometimes we would get our hands on something that was recorded, you know, because back then they also sold cassette tapes. They gave parties and they did the system and recorded it and people purchased it. Or you would bring your boombox and just go ahead and record the music from where you were standing. You want to remember that music passed through different hands, through different neighbourhoods so it wasn't so much about paying for it. It was like who do you know and who knows who and who had what music and who had what beat on their cassette...and it was a lot about just exchanging music through cassettes."

 Boombox from the late 1970s

NORIN RAD:"How did you transition into DJing from B-Boying?"


DJ KOOL JOE:"Like I said...my crew that I breakdanced with also evolved into DJing with me. I got interested in DJing with one of my dancers called Scooter....Scooter Rock....his name was DJ Scooter Rock and me and Scooter Rock wanted to DJ so bad. We had two old turntables...I had one from my mom's house and he had one from his mom's house and we put them together without a mixer. And we would turn the volume down from one to the other and the headphones just as well...so we would scratch one and take the headphone out from that one and put it into the next stereo and scratch that one and turn that one down vice versa."


NORIN RAD:"What made you choose the name "The M&M Crew" and which year was that?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"That was like in '78. My brother...my older brother which was M&M...he managed a record store on Crotona Avenue and he wasn't into DJing at the time and he was making very good money and I brought him to Scooter's house one day and he would watch what we was doing and so he really got interested in it. You know, he's like, "Wow! You guys are good!" Like I said he was like a father figure to me and he bought a lot of clothes for me....he took me to Fordham Road and he bought me two 1100 Technics turntables...direct drive..and he bought me a mixer just as well...it was a Gemini. And we started DJing on that. From there the rest of the equipment started developing and my brother got very interested in it as well so we called it "The M&M Crew"...DJ Kool Joe & The M&M Crew  It was his name M&M but I was more of the first DJ....I did most of the routines with the MCees."

NORIN RAD:"Who were the MCees of the M&M Crew? Like the hardcore members 'cause I have seen various line-ups on different flyers..."

DJ KOOL JOE:"Ah man,  I would have to say my first MCees, man, because they were more dedicated. I got to say MC Hutch, EZ E, Jimmy Joe and MC L.A. L.A. he stayed at 800 down there by Southern Boulevard and one day he just came when we were rocking and he just got down with us." 

NORIN RAD:"Alright, and did the MC section of your crew have their own specific name?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes! They were the Force Four. This was the title:  DJ M&M, DJ Kool Joe & The Force Four MCees."  

The M&M Crew

NORIN RAD:"How long did this line up of the Force Four MCees stay with you?"

DJ KOOL JOE:" I would have to say 1980 because we did do a party at the Audobon Ballroom with Melle Mel, Kid Creole and Mr. Ness (all MCees of the legendary Furious Five) and the Force Four. That was in 1979 and after that the MCees started diversing."

NORIN RAD:"Would your MCees also do routines like the Furious Four/Five and the Funky Four did?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh yes, we had several routines..several routines and MC Hutch wrote most of them. EZ E wrote a few. We had a couple of routines and then also a little dancing in it."

                                                   

MC HUTCH (The M&M CREW)

NORIN RAD:"That's quite interesting to hear because nowadays when you go to see a Rapper perform live all  he usually does while rapping is merely walking up and  down the stage but it seems as if back then DJ / MC performances were like real shows....something exciting to watch which must have required a lot of effort to be put in."

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes sir! Routines included dance moves just as well!! And actually I caused a lot of the dance moves of the MCees....we would start off with something slow like Commodores "Zoom"....(hums the melody) and they would make their moves to that beat and after we would do that then we would change into something faster ...a little dancing...and then we would begin with the rap routine."


NORIN RAD:"Do you recall how often you and your MCees would meet up back then in order to practice your shows?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"We lived and breathed  it, man! When we came home from school we would get right to it. Straight like that! We didn't do it in the house if we wanted to do more...more than what we can do in the house...like the routines we were talking about with the dance steps...we would go to our school which was called I.S. 167....they would let us bring our equipment there and we would just do our routines for whoever was at the gym that day...playing basketball or whatever...or they would just let us have the cafeteria to let us do what we needed to do. Or we just go to Lambert Center and do it there while kids were playing pool, you know stuff like that..."

NORIN RAD:"I see...and what were your regular stomping grounds back then? At which spots would you perform regularly? I guess I.S. 167 and Lambert Center were two of these spots, right? "


DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh yeah, we would do it right across the street at Bronx Park. Bronx River had their location which was in the middle of the projects. We would  even do it in the middle of our projects which was called The Half. We would call it the Half because that's where the projects split up between each side. And everybody would meet at The Half anyway so...it was like a big space with a basketball court and we would do it there, man! We would do our parties there or in Bronx Park which is located right connected  to the Bronx Zoo. We would have people come from all over to our parties."

October 20th, 1979: DJ Kool Joe & The Force Four rock with DJ Afrika Islam and his Funk Machine Crew

                                                   

November 23rd, 1979: The M&M Crew rocks at Bronx River Center

NORIN RAD:"When you started DJing you didn't do backspinning but i guess you would adapt that technique later on, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Never!! I always thought it was cheating! I always thought it was cheating! And I consider myself to be the best. We were looked at as the underdogs but I always proved myself to be the best DJ! I just thought it was cheating. I used to practice whatever I heard anybody do I used to go to my room and try to do it double....faster...or with one hand!!!  I never enjoyed spinning back. I picked that needle up and dropped it right there on the dime! When you heard people spinning with Flash and Theodore and cats like that...when you heard them spinning...they would catch "Scratching" (classic Breakbeat by the Magic Disco Machine)..I would pick the needle up on that! I'm not spinning that back! You have to remember from back when we were talking a little while ago  I used to have to take the headphone out of one turntable and put it into the other turntable and put the volume down as well to mix and that would develop the speed for me when I got to a mixer. I didn't have to move the headphones anymore. It was just natural for me to be fast. I never liked spinning. I tried it once or twice and I didn't like it."

NORIN RAD:"Let's talk about some of the rules of DJing back then so that the younger cats out there understand what this artform is truly all about. Why would DJs hide the labels of their records back then?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Man, back then EVERYBODY WANTED TO HAVE THE MOST BEATS! You know, so everybody was hiding their labels 'cause they didn't want anybody to know the name of their beats 'cause then you would have the beat. So if I went to a Kool DJ AJ party or a Bambaataa party or Flash party and I'm standing close enough to the tuntable and your record wasn't covered I could see the name of it and I can go get it. That was the secret to that."

NORIN RAD: "Was that also the reason why DJs would put a rope around their set?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Right. Well, not only that....the rope was just for the crew. We would separate ourselves from the audience. You know, we were the crew so if you wasn't down with the crew or you wasn't affiliated with carrying equipment or with the MCees or with one of us you wouldn't come behind the rope."


NORIN RAD:"How difficult was it back then to get two copies of the same record in order to cut up a beat? Were there stores carrying multiple copies of various albums?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Well actually they did have it in a record store. There were particular record stores that the DJs went to. There was this place called The Downstairs and there was this young guy called Elroy and if you became his friend....if he was kool with you he would sell you the best beats."

NORIN RAD:"Oh, so Elroy knew about beats?"

DJ KOOL JOE: "Right, and if you wasn't kool with Elroy you wouldn't get no beats. (chuckles) And back then beats were very expensive...we would pay up to 20 -25 dollars just for a snippet of a beat on a whole album. So it was difficult to buy two of them. And not only to that...we came up with a secret a lot of the beats that were being played were from old songs that our mom and dad used to play. I told my crew and those affiliated with us to raid their parents' record collection and we would get together in my house and play each one.. every side until we found a beat. And a lot of times the beats that we would catch would be something that Bambaataa (the Master of Records) played. We would be like, "Oooooh, that's it!!!!! We got it! We got it! Look at that!!!!" You know? Whatever we could use we used it."

NORIN RAD:"So you would actually listen to a lot of different albums trying to find beats that you could use for your parties?"


DJ KOOL JOE:"That's right! Beats like The Average White Band "Cut The Cake" I was one of the first DJs to ever play that beat! I took that beat to the Audobon with Flash and Theodore were side by side with me DJing  and I put that song on and everybody went crazy. That's the first time they heard that record, I'm telling you!!"

 

                         Interview with the Original B-Boy Beaver (The Little Zulu Kings)






                                                             

Beaver (The Little Zulu Kings)

                                                           

NORIN RAD:"Where did you get that name "Beaver" from?"

BEAVER:"My grandmother gave me that name as a nickname." 

NORIN RAD:"When did you start breaking?"

BEAVER:"In the mid seventies."

NORIN RAD:"What was your relationship with Afrika Bambaata and the Zulu Kings back then when you first started?"


BEAVER:" We all grew up together. It all started in Bronx River Circle where Afrika Bambaataa would play music through his window. He lived in my building 1595 on the first floor. His window was on the side facing the Circle and Bronx River Center.  He would put one or two speakers outside of his windows and he would play different beats and that's when we would start breakdancing. Then on a later date Bam got a contract with the community center and he started playing on the stage in back of the center."

NORIN RAD:"Did he do this during day time?"

BEAVER:"During the day and night."

NORIN RAD:"So whenever you heard beats blasting from downstairs you would know that Bambaataa had the B-Boys rocking?"

BEAVER:"Absolutely! Most of the time we all hung out in the circle." 

NORIN RAD:"What kind of circle was that? Was it some sort of of construction with fences?"

BEAVER:"No. It had tables and benches outside with about a foot wall that formed a circle around the community center in the middle of Bronx River."

NORIN RAD:"What is your recollection of the hierarchy within the Zulu Kings?"

BEAVER:"You had the older crew which was lead by Squirpy. Squirpy also lived in my building. Squirpy was Shaka and I was Little Shaka. I was the leader of the younger Zulu Kings. Brothers had to dance in front of me to be able to join the crew. They would come to my house to try out to become a member of the Zulu Kings. We would set something up. Sometimes we would take them to Bronx River Center and go into one of the rooms there and they would try out. They would have to dance in front of me or there were times when I might have somebody battle them, you know? And if they beat the person that they battled against they would become a Zulu King.  Some qualified and some didn't. If they made it they would get a Zulu King card that I would sign on the back of the card. They had to pay 10.00 dollars for the cards and that money went toward our Zulu King t-shirts... "

May 27th, 1977: Battle between The Zulu Kings and The Shaka Zulus at JHS 123. Note: The Little Zulu Kings (Beaver's Crew)  are also mentioned as attraction along with the Zulu Queens

NORIN RAD:"Did these shirts come in a specific color combination?"

BEAVER:"Yes..they were black and white T-Shirts with "Zulu Kings" on the front and the B-Boys name on the back." 


NORIN RAD:"So your B-Boy name was both Beaver and Little Shaka?"

BEAVER:"Yes, Sir!" 

NORIN RAD:"Did Squirpy give you that name or did you choose it out of respect for him?"

BEAVER:"Well, you see Afrika Bambaataa started calling me Little Shaka because I was a leader. Shaka...It means "Ruler of many"!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh, so as Squirpy was the leader of the older Zulu Kings and was therefore called Shaka you were called Little Shaka because you were the leader of the younger Zulu Kings?"

BEAVER:"Yes, Sir!" 

NORIN RAD:"What were you looking for when people came to you in order to try for the Little Zulu Kings? What were the requirements that they had to meet? Was it charisma? Outstanding moves?"

BEAVER:"I was definetely looking for somebody that had his own style and that their moves were crisp. Their moves wasn't sloppy but they were sharp! You know I was looking for finesse...for you being able to do something without messing up."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, now let me ask you this...from what I have been told Bronx River was very tough back in those days, right? So wasn't it a rather dangerous undertaking for B-Boys from outside to come to your apartment in order to try for the Little Zulu Kings? How would that go down?"

BEAVER:"Most of the time as we went to block parties in different areas and people knew my name and they knew what I was coming with. When I came there I came there with my crew and we was coming to make noise, you know? So with that being said a lot of times they would approach me in their town, in their area or in their project...they would approach me to ask me about  breakdancing or about certain moves or about how could they try out,  how could they join the Little Zulu Kings. I lived on the 12th floor at 1595 and a lot of times people would come to my house and how they would find out where I live....? They would probably find out from Bam or probably somebody in the neighbourhood might have said something if they were looking for me. The people in the neighborhood knew that they weren't looking for me to harm me....but that they were looking for me to become a Zulu King or try to even join the Zulu Nation."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, but in general Bronx River was a rather tough place, right? I have heard that once you crossed that infamous East 174th Street Bridge as a stranger you had to be prepared to be checked."

BEAVER:"Yes! Bronx River was a very tough neighbourhood...people were afraid to come to Bronx River. You had to get permission to come to Bronx River....the reason being is because not only did Bronx River develop a name for itself like the Zulu Nation, the Zulu Kings, the Shaka Zulus....before all of that Bronx River had a crew called The Black Spades which was a gang and they used to terrorize!"   

East 174th Street Bridge..Gate To Bronx River

NORIN RAD:"I heard you do have a brother by the name of Poo Poo who was also a B-Boy, is that correct?"

BEAVER:"Yeah, that's my brother..he did it not as much. He was like Kusa (another Zulu King B-Boy)...Kusa had a famous move called the Jelly Roll...my brother... he had a move called the Flop....and these moves were similar...the Jelly Roll was a flip and land on your back...the Flop was a back flip land on your stomach."   

Poo Poo (The Little Zulu Kings) Beaver's brother

NORIN RAD:"Is Poo Poo older or younger than you?"

BEAVER:"He is a year and a half older than I." 

NORIN RAD:"What were your signature moves back then?"

BEAVER:"Well, to be honest with you EVERY move that I did was MY signature move and I came up with my moves as I was dancing...I made up new moves when I was dancing....I didn't have a certain move...I mean I would do something like a spin on my back.....a twist with one of my legs behind my head....I was flexible (chuckles)...you know I did moves that were hard for anybody else to do."

NORIN RAD: "So was there any practicing at all when you did it back then?"

BEAVER:"Well, actually sometimes me and Poo Poo we would practise at our home but we would go out to the different block parties that were happening back then ....not just to those with Bam...in Bronxdale, Monroe and Castle Hill and that's where we would perform. They would form a circle and we would just dance! And most of the time we ended up having dance battles."

NORIN RAD:"So that means local B-Boys would step to you there and try to burn you?"

BEAVER:"Oh yes, and that's when they would get defeated! I was undefeated....but the majority of the time us...the Zulu Kings...we would all travel together and when we travelled it  might be Kusa...it might be Poo...Kusa and Poo Poo were best friends!cIt might be..there was a little brother by the name of Johnny that used to travel with us that was also a Zulu King...he was pretty decent with his moves and he might start it out..then there was another one named Stevie... another one named Anthony...we all danced, you know? They would start it out, you know...and if they couldn't handle the person that they was going against then I was taking over..."

Kusa (The Zulu Kings)

NORIN RAD:"So you were like the lethal weapon that came in when things were looking kinda bad for the Zulus?"  

BEAVER:"Yes! Yes! Nobody really wanted to challenge me because I was known all over..I was known for dancing and it got to a point were nobody wanted to challenge me but they wanted to challenge my crew."

NORIN RAD:"Let's talk about the toughest battle that you ever had back then...that one against Chris and Wendell you told me about..."

BEAVER:"Well, Wendell was from 169th Street & Webster Avenue but Chris lived in Lambert and he was one of the baddest B-Boys in Lambert. They did double team me....there was a block party at Bronx River....Afrika Bambaataa was playing behind the Bronx River Center and they informed me that Chris and Wendell were coming for me and as I said they double teamed me but I beat them. People had always wanted us to dance against each other but we never met up until that time and then they ended up becoming Zulu Kings."

NORIN RAD:"Did you ask them to join the Zulu Kings?"

BEAVER:"No, actually they asked me. They approached me and asked me what would it take to try out but being that I knew that they were good...I had heard about them over the years...so when they approached me of course I wanted them on my team because we were unstoppable together." 

NORIN RAD:"How did they actually try to beat you? What do you remember about that?"

BEAVER: (laughs) It's been a long time but I do remember....Wendell had a move where he would do like a flip in the air and kinda crossed his legs in a certain way......it was a nice move but of course I came back with something....I was always prepared because as I said I always had moves made up in my head that I would try as I was dancing."          



NORIN RAD:"Back in your era B-Boys had to match the music with their moves, right? It wasn't like today where it is pretty much normal to ignore the beat..."


BEAVER:"Let me tell you....IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE BEAT!!!!!  You wasn't dancing if you didn't dancing to the beat!!! It was all about the beat! When you heard that beat...your moves HAD to connect to the beat!"

NORIN RAD:"So you really didn't even have to think about the beat it just came natural?"

BEAVER: "Yes, it just came natural."

NORIN RAD:"So what would have happened if somebody back then had chosen to ignore the beat?"

BEAVER:"We would have looked at them as not being able to dance....like they were dancing off." 

NORIN RAD: "As for the parties at Bronx River Center and JHS 123 what kind of music do you recall being played there? Was it breakbeats all night?"

BEAVER: "Well at 123..that's the high school....there was some of everything. Bambaataa used to play slow music....when it was time to dance.. you know breakdance...he played the B-Boy music..the Hiphop (not Rap Music!)...There was a time when he played music so you could get your grind on.....But at Bronx River Center it was more of Hip Hop Beats (breakbeats)...you know there was always a lot of breakdancing going on there."

NORIN RAD:"Could you describe the feeling that you had when you heard those breakbeats at Bronx River?"

BEAVER:"Well, I'mma tell you...when they played those songs an adrenaline rush did come because when they played those songs you was ready to get your dance on!"


NORIN RAD:"How would you find out about those parties outside of Bronx River which you have just mentioned? I mean those parties certainly weren't advertised on television or the radio, right?"

BEAVER:"Right! Well, let me say this with Disco King Mario from Bronxdale...he had a crew  
 that used to go out and pass flyers out.."

NORIN RAD:"I see."

BEAVER:"Even when Afrika Bambaataa would perform...he would make up flyers and we (The Little Zulu Kings)  would go out and pass those flyers out. We would go to the other neighbourhoods and pass the flyers out! We would go to Castle Hill...we would ride our bikes or hop on the bus, or take a cab or do stuff like that. You know today they have Uber but back then we would call a taxi cab and go to different neighbourhoods. We also had what you'd call mopeds or ten speed bikes and so we would pass those flyers out and let people know that a block party is getting ready to start at such and such time and that's how we communicated with everybody  in different neighbourhoods! The word always got out!"

NORIN RAD:"So Afrika Bambaataa entrusted you with this kind of responsibility?"

BEAVER:"Oh yes, yes!!! We was all Zulu Kings and we were in the Zulu Nation as well. So we made sure that people knew about the block parties and what was going on in Bronx River. You know Bam didn't just do parties in Bronx River...he did block parties in Castle Hill, he had block parties in Monroe Projects, he did block parties in Soundview, Bronxdale, Lambert...out there on Webster Avenue. So he would travel to different places and do parties.....and you know when I say "block parties"...a lot of times what we did in other neighbourhoods... because Bronx River had the Circle and they had the Bronx River Center and in the back of that center was a stage...we had that set up.  Other neighbourhoods they did not always have that so when they weren't doing it in the parks they would cut off the street. They would put cones up and block the street....so they would have a big party on the street..the party would be three or four blocks....or five blocks! And a lot of times we would get permission from the police to block the street off so it was okay."

NORIN RAD:"And back then the DJs used to have big soundsystems so you would hear the beats from many blocks away, right?"

BEAVER:"Oh my gosh! Right, they had the monster equipment..the speakers were unbelievably huge and loud!"

NORIN RAD:"So would you help Bambaataa with carrying his record crates and his soundsytem?"

BEAVER:"We did that and he also had a crew that would carry the equipment, the speakers...they would put the speakers on big carts and roll them...four wheel carts...he also had it where he had made carts that connected to the speakers so they could roll..and then he had a crew that would carry all the crates (boxes full of records), you know?! They would carry the turntables, the amps, all that."

NORIN RAD:"Would Bambaataa also put a rope around his DJ equipment that you weren't allowed to cross unless you were down with him?"

BEAVER:"Afrika Bambaataa whenever he played in the back of Bronx River Center on the stage he would rope it off. He'd put a rope around the speakers, around the equipment...you couldn't come up to the stage, you know?  Even when he was playing out on the street he would rope off the table that the turntables sat on. Monk (another Zulu King B-Boy)...he passed away a couple of years ago...he did make sure that the stage was clear at Bronx River..little short guy.. Monk...we was kool."  

NORIN RAD:"Were there any Puerto Rican B-Boys among the Zulu Kings or Little Zulu Kings that you recall?"

BEAVER:"Yes! Yes! There was a Puerto Rican B-Boy by the name of Peter....Peter from Bronx River.... who also was a Zulu King. He didn't dance as much but he was pretty good! The last thing I heard was that he was killed."

NORIN RAD:"Oh okay, and did you ever battle against any Puerto Rican B-Boys? I'm asking you this question because you are held in regard by many Puerto Rican B-Boys from the Bronx and I would like to trace back how you actually influenced them."

BEAVER:"No!!! No!! They came on the scene later on.... like I after I got out of it."

NORIN RAD:"Oh, okay! But I have heard that you and a guy called Peanut once looked for a Puerto Rican B-Boy called Vinnie from the Sal Soul Crew at a swimming pool on Crotona Avenue back in 1975 and that you were defeated by him."

BEAVER:"That's been made up! I have never been defeated and I don't know who Vinnie is or who Peanut is and I have never danced against anybody by those names and again... most of those guys came in after...way after I stopped B-Boying in 1980.  What I see in that is  a lot of people want street credit. They feel if they mention my name and say they defeated me or taught me or what have you..they think that people will respect them and give them that credit that they think they deserve."  

NORIN RAD:"Thank you for clearing that up! Could you describe how B-Boys used to dress back in your era? You would wear Pro-Keds, Kangols, Sweatshirts with Old English Letters ironed on them , right? Stuff like that... "

BEAVER:(laughs)"Yes, Sir!!! With me..Yo, my crew we wore every color Kangol, you know Kangol hats....every color Puma....the suede Pumas...every color Adidas...Shelltoe Adidas we wore those in leather...every color Fletcher hat.....we wore British Walkers when we went to the clubs....we wore Playboys.......you know Izods... Lacoste Shirts and polo shirts...every color Super Pro-Keds.  The Super Pro-Keds had the red and blue stripe on the side...we wore every color of that...we wore every color of the 69er with the three stripes....then in the later years we started wearing every color Converse of the All Stars....Lees...Lee Jeans....you know Cortefiels, Cazal glasses..we started weaing all that."   

Pro-Keds 69ers with the three Stripes

NORIN RAD:"Would you say that dressing fly was a part of the B-Boy identity back then?"

BEAVER:"Oh, absolutely! You couldn't go and B-Boy if you wasn't fly!! (laughs) You couldn't do it! Whenever you travelled to go to another project to breakdance you gotta go fly because for one you are not just going there to breakdance...you are going there to check out the females all that..so you gotta look fly. So you go fly and you just so happen to be caught up in breakdancing. You wanna be out there breakdancing lookig good!"

NORIN RAD:"Which importance had Top Rocking to the B-Boys of your era? From what I have heard so far the whole dance started on top with legends like Trixie, Sasa etc.  and I would like to understand how it gradually turned into a floor centered dance form."

BEAVER:"Yeah, yeah..we all did Top Rock dancing but it always ended up, you know, down low on the floor  because there was always battles against B-Boys from different neighbourhoods. But everybody did Top Rock dancing...shaking and doing different moves on top but it always ended up down low, you know? Doing acrobatic moves that'll help you to win the battle."

NORIN RAD:"Was there like only one specific style of Top Rock dancing out when you did it back then? I'm asking this question because today many out here think that there merely one style existed namely that in which a B-Boy crosses his right leg over to the left side and then bounces back to his starting position in order to then cross his left leg over to the right side. Could you elaborate on that?" 

BEAVER:"There was all types of different styles! Everybody would have their own style of top rock dancing...What you've just about crossing the leg and then going back...everybody did that but everybody also had other moves that they would add to that. Like some would get into a person's face and make like a square and act like they had a bat and threw a ball and knock their head off...they would do different things like that and then they would also freeze."  

NORIN RAD:"Thank you! If one listens to those beats that were played back then at the jams it becomes quite obvious that they differed in terms of pace and mood...Like you had fast beats such as "Apache" that fill you with adrenaline but there were also joints like "Ain't No Half Stepping" by Heatwave that were a much slower and didn't come off as agressive....Would B-Boys  actually adjust their top rock dancing according to these different flavours of beats?"

BEAVER:"Absolutely! You had to adjust your pace to whatever the beat was.....if the beat was fast you would adjust your pace.....if it was slow you would do a slower pace. So for instance what you just called out...."Ain't No Half Stepping" that beat was kinda slow but the way Bambaataa used to mix that beat....he used to mix it sometimes with "Apache", you know? So it was very exciting because they would take the slower beat and blend them in with the faster beat! That made you wanna go off even harder!"  

NORIN RAD:"Okay, and what kind of floormoves and footwork shuffles were you doing exactly?"

BEAVER:"Again it goes back to...you know, I had the sweep  as far as a floor move. The front sweep and the back sweep. Flips, you know I twisted my body...I mean I was doing some of everything on the floor.Spinning on my back, spinning on my head..I was doing those before it got popular."

NORIN RAD:"I see....and you were the one that actually took the front sweep that the older Zulu Kings would also do and then developed the back sweep out of it, right? And you were the only one capable of doing it."

BEAVER:"Yes! I not only did with one foot backwards but I would do it with both feet backwards  and nobody could do that! When were doing the front sweep I would also do the front sweep with both feet and then reverse it and nobody could master that!" 

                              Interview with DJ Smokey (The Master Plan Bunch) 


                     conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders Crew / Germany)

                                                     

                                                                

DJ Smokey (The Master Plan Bunch)

NORIN RAD:"What made you pick up that name Smokey?"

DJ SMOKEY:"I was running track in Taft High School and I could run really fast. When I ran the dust would be kicking up from my sneakers. They would say, "What do we got here? You're smoking!" "Hey, Smokey!" See! So the name kept sticking. I kept the nickname when I was DJing..it said DJ Smokey! That's how the name came about..DJ Smokey! As time went on I dropped the Y and it was DJ Smoke. People just kept calling me DJ Smokey. Flash and them would call me DJ Smokey. Kool Herc called me DJ Smokey."

NORIN RAD: "When did you form your dance crew? The Smoke-A-Trons? Was that around 1974/75?"

DJ SMOKEY: "No. That was around 1972."

NORIN RAD: "From your recollection how did Breaking as a dance come about? What are its roots?"

DJ SMOKEY: " Okay, in 1969 the dance at these 25 Cent parties in the basements and in the clubs started to change, it was more of a expression vibe. Like this song that came out in 1970 "Express Yourself!" You see it was more of a rush dance, a anger dance. "Say It Loud I'm Black And I'm Proud" ..they were like "Ahhhh, I'm angry!" A anger dance!! Like "I'm tired of all this shit....who you're calling nigger?" and it was also like "I'm from this block you're from that block!" You know what I'm saying? Two guys would go at each other....

NORIN RAD " Would they go down to the floor?"

DJ SMOKEY "No, they wouldn't go down on the floor. Absolutely not. They would express themselves with each other. One would stand in front of another and they would go like "BAMM!"" I mean they would do moves with their arms, like hitting each other and kicking at the same time...all to the music. But no touching!! Guys were like showing what they were gonna do to each other...That's where this breaking dance really came from.. and remember this was before there were two turntables involved.

NORIN RAD: "Now as for that name Smoke-A-Trons how did that come about?

DJ SMOKEY: "The Smoke-A-Trons were my dancers, the ones that I picked.Sister Boo, Johnny Kool, James Bond, Crazy Eddie, the Yellow Banana....all my dancers...when people would come to our block and think that they could dance my dancers would smoke the hell out of them. That's why I called them The Smoke-A-Trons."

NORIN RAD:"Where was Sister Boo from? The 9?"

DJ SMOKEY: " No, she wasn't from the 9. I think she was from Jerome Avenue. She was real good and beautiful. I'll send you some pictures of her. She is dead now, she died from AIDS. The Yellow Banana is still around. Her real name is Vivien. She used to go to Kool Hercs parties, too."

NORIN RAD: "So the Smoke-A-Tron B-Boys and B-Girls were Sista Boo, Johnny Kool, James Bond, Crazy Eddie.."

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes, but I had more. there were bout 20 of them."

NORIN RAD: "Could you name them please?"

DJ SMOKEY: "El Dorado Mike."

NORIN RAD: "El Dorado Mike was down with you, too? I have heard a lot about him...."

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah, he was one my B-Boys. The Nigger Twins would come to my parties, too. You can ask them about me, you can ask them about DJ Smokey...Then I had Bo Bo, he was from the 9. Here's another one: The Calgonite Kid. He was so dirty that they called him the Calgonite Kid. Then there was Barbara, Beavey, Born, Knowledge...They are in heaven now."

NORIN RAD: "What about Ron, Sleepy and  Kaseem? I heard Pow Wow from the Zulu Kings mention them as great B-Boys."'

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, yes they were all Smoke-A-Trons. Sleepy was very good."

NORIN RAD:"What were your stomping grounds in terms of indoor as well as outdoor party spots around the early to mid 1970 when The Smoke-A-Trons were with you?" 

DJ SMOKEY:"The Cave! '74! It was on Webster Avenue....in the Webster Avenue Projects. It was on Webster Avenue & 167th street. We called it The Cave."

NORIN RAD:"Damn! Melle Mel mentioned that the first B-Boy party he ever witnessed took place at The Cave with you playing the music....Was that a club?" 

DJ SMOKEY:"It was a community center. One of the buildings had a big community center and it was in that center!"

NORIN RAD:"I heard  that you were also giving parties at a spot called Over The Dover (I read that in an interview with Pow Wow from the Zulu Kings / Soul Sonic Force)....What kind of spot was that?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Okay, The Dover was a movie theatre that was closed. On the top of The Dover was a club that Lucky got for us. We called it Over The Dover.....it was kinda raggedy so we started working on it.....we had to build it up and clean it.  The more we built it up the more people came and before we got the amps stolen from us we had it packed on the regular. At first it was 100 people, then it was 200 people.....then 1000.....we started to make so much money out of it. The Smoke-A-Trons and Luke- A-Trons were there....but then unfortunately we got robbed....."

NORIN RAD:" From what I've heard you also used to do parties at your apartment on Grant Avenue where B-Boys got down at heavily..."

DJ SMOKEY:" Yes!! All day long!!!  All day long!!! My apartment was on 169th street & Grant Avenue...5D!!! On the fifth floor....We played music 24/7 !! That's where my Smoke-A-Trons..they would come in there daily, hang out and dance. We would also do block parties on Grant Avenue in the summer time."

NORIN RAD: "But how would all the these B-Boys and B-Girls that later ran with the Smoke-A-Trons and the Luke -A-Trons as well as those who challenged them know about your parties i on Grant Avenue?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Because of the cards! You know what an index card is, right? Before flyers we passed out little index cards. We would give'em to people to take them to school. Pass them out! You know on the DL, on the down low. Like you had a cheerleader or a football player in school....."Here's a card. This is where the party is going to be at!" "Smokey is giving a party!" Once it started spreading around it got big! That's when Flash started coming around my house. They ain't telling. That's why Lucky and them are being mad."

NORIN RAD: "What was Lucky's function within the Master Plan Bunch?"

DJ SMOKEY: "He was like the Godfather! You know he was a gangster. He was at the door. He takes care of the food! He takes care of the product, you know what I'm talking about? He took care of the bills. He was like the overseer, he is older than us. He took care of the muscle. Whenever we needed it, he had the muscle. He kept the money going. And also he is a gambler...he is a dice man. He took care of the house we played the dice. He was like Bumpy Johnson."  

NORIN RAD:"Where did you meet Lucky for the first time?"

DJ SMOKEY:"I met him at the Factory West in Harlem."


                                                  

Lucky (The Master Plan Bunch)

NORIN RAD:"So you served food and drinks at your parties on Grant Avenue?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, hot dogs, hamburgers, sodas, beer, Old English 800...things like that. Anything you needed..loose joints. I don't really wanna talk about that on the phone though (laughs)!" 

NORIN RAD:"Now who exactly were the Luke-A-Trons?"

DJ SMOKEY:"The Luke-A-Trons were basically Lucky's dancers, they were mostly girls."

NORIN RAD:"Could you name some of the B-Girls that ran with the Luke-A-Trons?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Sister Boo! She was the number one! (Sister Boo shared membership of both the Smoke-A-Trons and the Luke-A-Trons) Angie Du Bose was a Luke-A-Tron...Barbara was a Luke-A-Tron....Yellow Banana was a Luke-A-Tron....Beverly Burton was a Luke-A-Tron....Sheila was a Luke-A-Tron...It was about 30 of them. It was a whole team of them. Females! Webster Avenue Crew was Luke-A-Trons and some of them were Spanish and they were Luke-A-Trons!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh so there were Puerto Rican B-Girls among the Luke-A-Trons?"

DJ SMOKEY:" Yes, we called them Maniquas. They was Luke-A-Trons, yes! They used to Hustle and Breakdance! I'm serious! Then we had Savage Nomads (notorious street gang from the Bronx)...girls....they were bad. They'd do the Hustle...all of them. When they came to the party... Oh my God! They were beautiful girls!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh, so I guess the Luke-A-Trons would attract a lot of people to come to your parties, right?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Thank you! That's what started it off.  Over The Dover....I got pictures of this stuff I wanna show you.  Beautiful girls!! Let me tell you something.... I was mad because the Yellow Banana didn't like me and I wanted to rap to her but she would say, "You got too many girlfriends you better get out of my face! (laughs) I'm serious! Sister Boo, too! She never rapped to me. "

NORIN RAD:"And all the Smoke-A-Trons and Luke-A-Trons would hang out at your house and also practise there during daytime, right?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Night time, too. Some of them they would not leave..they would stay for two or three days! They would sleep on the floor  and then just get up.. get something to eat..take a shower...change up.... and enjoy themselves. There was no raping nothing like that because guys knew we would beat the shit out of them.."

NORIN RAD:"So it was like a family thing?"

DJ SMOKEY:"It was a family, yes! We took care of them. They knew nobody would hurt them. They felt comfortable. Lucky would let nobody hurt them anyway."

NORIN RAD:"What about their opponents? Would they challenge the Smoke-A-Trons and Luke-A-Trons at your apartment?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah..when other people came from different neighbourhoods they had to come through them....dancing. They (the other B-Boys & B-Girls)  would lose a lot of times! Sometimes they would win...but most of the times they lost. 155th Street Crew...they lost. The Polo Grounds Crew lost....University Avenue Crew they lost. They would get their ass handed to them because the Smoke-A-Trons was bad!! James Bond, Bobo and them was bad. They knew their style! Eldorado Mike? Come on...But there were a lot of good dancers back then... Ni**er Twins! They were bad!  Kool Herc's  team was bad, too! Clark Kent!!! They were good, I'm not lying. Flash's dance team was bad..Melle Mel and them could dance....they would all dance before they got into their shit (starting with MCing)." 

NORIN RAD:"From what I've heard so far talking to greats such as Trixie, Sasa and Clark Kent the early Breaking (1972-1974) was characterized by a lot of routines that the dancers would do while they were rocking on top. Would the Smoke-A-Trons also have these kind of routines and if so could you describe some them?"

Babe Ruth

DJ SMOKEY:"It was different back then...first of all they were dancing on real concrete! It wasn't no goddamn mats or cardboard on the ground...they were dancing on real concrete! They wasn't having that...no! As far as the routines... they were performers! You had to do something like a show. You had to do skits..they were doing skits before..It wasn't all that throwing yourself on the floor at once.....They (the Smoke-A-Trons) would do something like Charlie Chaplin...they would do Babe Ruth....the Frankenstein....the Spinning Top......there were so many different styles that they would do dancing. I still know these skits! You would do the Robot! I would tell them what styles they should do.... I mean I wasn't a good dancer myself but I would give them advice and tell 'em, "Do it this way!  Do the Spider or do The Drunken Monkey! Like in those Kung-Fu movies that we used to watch..."Do the Crane!" It was different skits that you would do breakdancing.....going crazy! I would break my Smoke-A-Trons down! "Do the Fallen Angel! " I had mirrors in my apartment and so they would practise all day. I would watch them and tell them, "Don't do it like him or her....do it your way!" I would let them know.....I got codes of what I wanted them to do like a coach!"  

NORIN RAD:"Alright! And so the name of your whole crew (DJs, dancers, promoters) was TMB.....The Masterplan Bunch, right?"
 

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes! We are Masters at what we do.......we Plan what we do and we travel as a bunch. TMB!"  
 
NORIN RAD:"What did your equipment consist of back then? Like which amps, speakers and turntables did you have ? Kids nowadays have no idea of what it took back in your era to do parties as a DJ."  

DJ SMOKEY:"Okay, I'mma say it this way. It was Peavey's. Peavey columns... Everything was mostly Peaveys. I started out with different kind of stuff. In the beginning it was Kenwoods then it branched out to Peaveys. Some Jamaicans they were giving us other stuff and we started building speakers. That's where Ahmad Shabazz came in and then other people started coming in, you know what I'm saying? We built the woofers..we built the sub range, the mid range..we built some of the tweeters, the horns...I got carpetenters who built those cabinets. At the peak of it...I'd say around '76....aaah, 76' we was really at our peak then. In '77 somebody robbed us and took the Peavey amps and that kinda like threw me off. "

NORIN RAD:"Oh shit!!! Where did that happen?"

DJ SMOKEY:"It was on 169th street & Grant Avenue (Smokey's apartment)......somebody had left the door open and the stick up kids came up and took the amps...That kinda hurt me!  They took the amps..they couldn't carry the speakers because they were so big....they just took the amps. (gets excited)  It was a set up!!! At gunpoint!!!"

NORIN RAD: "So it was a rather serious thing back then to be a DJ 'cause cats would try to get at you and snatch your equipment away?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah! They could never rob our parties because we had too much security. We would never have a fight at our block parties because we had too much security. They tried to rob us at parties but the security was so tight before they could get next to us the security already bagged them. One party at Burger King's...my mother was taking money at the door..this guy walks in with a shotgun pointing it at my mother...seconds...seconds..we snatched the shotgun..beat him up and took him around the block. His boy..he had a gun..he ran off cause our security was soo tight.
That's how we trained our security.....inside the party and outside the party."

NORIN RAD:"How deep was your breakbeat arsenal at your peak in '76 and '77? Were you known for having rare beats?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes, I had some very rare beats. I had four crates..beats, just beats in it....two crates with other music. So I had like six crates...."

NORIN RAD:"Nowadays the younger DJs are not really familiar with what it took back then to become a DJ....Like building up a Soundsystem, buying two copies of the same record to extend the break..."

DJ SMOKEY:"I had six copies! Sometimes when we played outside...the records...the sun would warp them or they would get scratched up by the way that we was playing them and I used to have pennies and dimes on my needles and so sometimes the needle would break......we would cut the records so much that the grooves would get messed up....sometimes even the headphones would get messed up...So I had multiple copies of each record. "

NORIN RAD:"Where would you buy your records at?"

DJ SMOKEY:"There was a spot called Downstairs Music, Crazy Eddie....I would go as far as Brooklyn to get the records I needed....."

NORIN RAD:"What were your five favourite breakbeats?"

DJ SMOKEY:""It's Just Begun", "Apache", "Bongo Rock", "Open Sesame" by Kool & The Gang...there was version that had a nice beat on it.....sings, "Groove With The Jeannie"

NORIN RAD:"Who were your DJ partners back then? That ran with your crew?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Jerry D! Rob The Gold! There were also a lot of other DJs that played with me like Flash, Lovebug Starski and Mean Gene (from the legendary L-Brothers)."

DJ Rob The Gold (The Master Plan Bunch)

DJ Jerry Dee (The Master Plan Bunch)

NORIN RAD: "I don't mean to upset you but what was your relationship with Kool DJ Herc back then in the early to  mid 1970ies?"

DJ SMOKEY: "I was his nemesis!"

NORIN RAD: "Ok, so you were rivals! Did you ever go  against each other in a battle with your soundsystems?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, we did . He definetely had the equipment but skillwise I was much better than him and I'm still better today. He did something very slick to me at the PAL back then. He had invited me there to do a battle of the DJs and he had all his equipment there, massive equipment, you know what I'm saying? Half an hour before the PAL closed I finally got on using some of my equipment but I only had two speakers with me, two Peavey columns. So I tried to tear his ass up with what I had. I was waiting for Grandmaster Flash to bring the rest of my equipment but by the time he got there the PAL already closed. So Herc basically drowned me out because he had all his speakers there. Everybody said he won, he did not win..."

NORIN RAD: "Where was that PAL located at?"

DJ SMOKEY:" On Webster Avenue in the Bronx."

NORIN RAD: "Do you recall in which year that battle took place?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Oh, I'm not sure that was such a long time ago....but I think it was in 1976. Definetely before I joined the military in 1978."

                                                       


                                                         

                                         Interview with the Original B-Boy Fuji (The D-Squad)




                                                   

Fuji (The D-Squad)

 
NORIN RAD: "From which part of the Boogie Down Bronx are you? Like which section of it and which street were you raised at?"

FUJI:"Well, were I was raised at differs from where I got into B-Boying actually. I'm totally from the South Bronx, okay? 23 Park was the area that we pretty much frequented, where we practised at and where we did a lot of jams at and that was on Tinton Avenue in the South Bronx. In the vicinity I lived probaby three, four blocks away from there... a place called Prospect Avenue."

NORIN RAD:"How did you get that name Fuji?"

FUJI:"That's a nickname I picked up going to karate movies such as Bruce Lee movies

NORIN RAD:"Where and when did you witness Breaking for the first time and what made you get involved in it?"

FUJI:"Well, first of all I was alwas a dancer! I loved dancing since I was a kid. The very first time I witnessed it I was actually going around 23 Park area with a good friend of mine that  always lived in that area that I had met and we went into a hallway to one of his friends' house. And in the hallway I seen guys practising different things on the floor and I was like, "What are they doing?" You know? My friend said,"Oh, they're be breaking!" So I said, "Oh, let me see! Let me check them out! Let's stand here for a few and see what they are doing!" I looked at what they were doing and I liked it and I was introduced to these guys and then you know I just started coming around more often, watching them and I started getting down with them and I tried doing it myself and I liked it and so I continued on, you know?"

23 Park (Behagen Playground): Grandmaster Flash's stomping ground and home of The D-Squad B-Boys

 

NORIN RAD:"Do you recall which year that was?"

FUJI:"That might have been around..I would say roughly about 1974."

NORIN RAD: "And they were already doing floormoves at that time, right?"

FUJI:"Oh yes, definetely!"

NORIN RAD: "How and when did your crew The D-Squad form?"

FUJI:"When I met members of the D-Squad they had already a crew formed called "The D-Squad" and you have to understand in that area...when I met them 'cause I went to school with them...it was Melle Mel, Scorpio (Mr. Ness), Kid Creole.. we all went to the same junior high school. So basically after school everybody would hang around the park area...not everybody from school but certain groups of people would hang around...you know, the park and play ball (basketball) and stuff where there were basketball courts and different things to do.  So we would all hang around there and they already had a crew called The D-Squad and there were some of them who had stopped breaking and then there were some of them who were still breaking. So pretty much when I met them they were already formed as the D-Squad."

NORIN RAD:"How much passed after you had started breaking until you joined The D-Squad?"

FUJI:"I would say within a month or two."

NORIN RAD:"Who were the members of The D-Squad at that time and how would you describe each members' breaking style?"

FUJI:"Well, like I said there was a lot of guys in the area who were my friends because we all lived in the same area so we went to the same school and stuff like that. But some kids were a little older and they were basically...how can I say this? Mainly by the time I got with them it was Melle Mel, Scorpio (Mr. Ness) and I..we were the main breakers in our area. There were also some other guys that was good as well.  Melle Mel and Scorpio (Mr. Ness) were B-Boys mainly. Melle Mel was very physical so he would do a lot of moves that required strength, you know? And he was also very smooth with his stuff. Scorpio (Mr. Ness) was very fast, very stylish....and he liked to freeze. He was the first person I seen doing the freeze."   

Melle Mel & Fuji (The D-Squad)

NORIN RAD:"Thank you! How would you describe your own dancing style? Did you have a special signature move or a character that you would do like I heard the B-Boys from the West Bronx would do on the regular?"   

FUJI:"Not necessarily...I mean we did certain things like we would walk up to the guy we were dancing with..and he'd be there staring at us and we were like taking our hands and act like we were screwing off their head, throw it up in the air then swing it like a baseball bat and hit his head like it was a baseball. So I done things like that but I think a little bit prior to me coming on the scene they did a lot of Charlie Chaplin  moves and stuff like that. Guys liked to do that. I wasn't big on that by the time I started dancing. I was more of...just a very agile....quick on my feet and I liked to dance on my toes. I think I was the first person...if I'm not mistaken..to do that.  I mean I would pretty much be going up and down on both of my toes and then go down on the floor and go into my routine."

NORIN RAD:"At which venues (parks, gyms, clubs) in your area of the Boogie Down Bronx did Breaking take place on the regular and who were the main DJs there?" 

FUJI:"Well, there was several DJs....there was Grandmaster Flash, there was DJ Mean Gene and his brother DJ Cordie-O...are you just talking about the DJs in my area?"

NORIN RAD:"Yes, I would like to know specifically about the jamming spots and DJs in your area."

FUJI:"Okay, that would be 23 Park, that would be 63 park and as far as the clubs there was the Dixie Club, the Black Door, Over The Dover...those were the areas in our general area that we kind of frequented."

NORIN RAD:"What about gyms though? Like I heard they had the PAL on Webster Avenue where B-Boys would go off at. Was there something similar in your area?"

FUJI:"No.  Basically we went to the Webster P.A.L. and we travelled to different areas in the Bronx. It wasn't per se a P.A. L. in every particular area."

NORIN RAD:"What was your most memorable Battle? Where did it take place? Who was your opponent? Which moves were exchanged? And who won?"

FUJI:"Well, to be honest with you I never really was a battle type of a person. When I entered a party...I went to a party knowing I was gonna go off. Breakdancing...we called it Going off. I never like went to a party and said I was looking for a particular person to battle. I felt I was very confident withinin myself and I felt I was very good regardless of whoever was known at the time or was dancing I really didn't care. So I'm the type of dude I would go into the circle and I'm watching somebody dance and however good they are or whoever they were it wouldn't make no difference to me. As soon as they got up I would go down on the floor without even notice and do my routine. There is this perception out there that every time we went to a party it was particularly a battle where we would say, "Oh I wanna go against this dude, or this on or that one!" It wasn't that way all the time!"  

NORIN RAD:"I have always wondered whether Breaking was exclusively about battling back then. Thank you for clearing that up!"

FUJI:"It was about fun as well. Like I'll give you an example...Cholly Rock and his crew  they would come down to where we were giving parties in our area with Grandmaster Flash and I got to meet Cholly Rock by just us dancing and admiring the way each one of us danced. He was like, "Yo, you're really good!"and I said, "Aight, that's kool! You're, too! What's your name?" He said, "I'm Cholly Rock. This is Byron, this is Cedi Moe." So I was like, "Aight, kool! Where y'all from?" "Oh, we're from Uptown." "Kool. Welcome aboard! Have some fun!" So sometimes it was just admiration for each other. Knowing each one was good and it was just about showing your skill set. It wasn't always like,"Oh, I don't like that dude! I wanna battle him!" No, it wasn't always like that! It did happen, don't get it twisted but a lot of times it was just fun and admiration for dancing."

NORIN RAD:"Who were like the most outstanding B-Boys AND B-Girls in your particular area besides you guys from the D-Squad?"

FUJI:"Right, in our particular area we didn't have any B-Girls. B-Girls were around but they were very few. The most notable B-Boys I would say...Clark Kent was definetely a name that always stood above most other people.  Clark Kent was like an icon! Also Sasa and Trixie who were known as earlier practioners of B-Boying. Their names rang but they didn't come to every location where parties were given 'cause I never seen them where we partied at.  But their names were definetely noted! So you got Clark Kent, Sasa, Trixie....you had Amazing Bobo..you had a guy named One Eyed Andre..."

NORIN RAD:"He was from Lambert, right?"

FUJI:"Yeah, Lambert. One Eyed Andre was from Lambert. You had Little Rudy, you had Bruce Lee....There was also Black Avery, Bumpy Face Melvin, Little Man, Romance, Flipping Mike.....Flipping Mike was our secret weapon. Also Mean Gene (DJ from the L-Brothers) and Flash were B-Boys as well for a certain time. I never seen Flash dance but I seen Mean Gene dance."

NORIN RAD:"Was Mean Gene from the older generation of B-Boys that danced mainly on top?"

FUJI:"No, no! Mean Gene did some on the floor as well! When I came around them ...'cause he was from the same vicinity..I seen Mean Gene dance about once or twice only but he was definetely a nice B-Boy as well!"

Fuji (The D-Squad) & B-Boy / DJ Mean Gene (The L-Brothers)

NORIN RAD:"That B-Boy which you called your secret weapon...Flipping Mike..was he also affiliated with The D-Squad?"

FUJI:"He was also known around our way. I mean a lot of times he would come out to the park and sometimes he wouldn't. He was down with us but he wasn't per se at every party for sure.  But when he did come he was very good. He was one of our high school number one gymnasts. So that's why they called him Flipping Mike. He knew how to flip, do splits, back hand springs and stuff like that. So when we really wanted to show off  and we had Mike with us and we went to a party, you know, and we went into our routines. When somebody nice went to the floor we had Mike go off and they would be really impressed."

NORIN RAD:"But I guess everything was done to the music, right?"

FUJI:"We would always dance on beat! That's something I have noticed watching B-Boy clips on youtube and social media from overseas they're not really dancing to the beat. We felt the music! We danced to the rhythm. We put emphasis on being one with the beat. We went on the floor to the music for sure!" 

NORIN RAD:"Which role played music generally in you life back then in the 1970ies? I guess you weren't listening to breakbeats all the time like many people think today......"

FUJI:"No!!!!"

NORIN RAD:"Only when you went to the jams...So to what kind of music were you listening when you were chilling at home or hanging out with friends or a girl?"


FUJI:"Let me backup a minute. In my era coming up it was the norm on Saturday morning before we even could watch Soul Train or anything like that we had to get up super early and our parents would play music while we cleaned up the house. We would listen to music like Smokey Robinson, The Temptations, The Isley Brothers, Kool & The Gang, Sly & The Family Stone, Earth, Wind & Fire, Barry White, James Brown...This was the most popular genre that I enjoyed which was mainly R&B."

NORIN RAD:"So you would also go record shopping from time to time?"

FUJI:"Yes. The first album I ever purchased with my own money was  "Wild & Peaceful" by Kool & The Gang in 1973. That was the first album I ever bought with my own money not asking for money or anything. I saved up my money and I loved that album!"

NORIN RAD:"Jungle Boogie is on that LP, right?"

FUJI:"Jungle Boogie, Hollywood Swinging.....and also Funky Stuff."

NORIN RAD:"From your perspective how did the transition of Breaking from being a dance that was done mainly on top to a floormove centered dance take place?"

FUJI:"Well, I can only speak from my perspective.. some people that are older than me they may have experienced it differently. From what I remember myself around 1972 and prior to then I remember dancing on top of the floor myself and I believe that was the Burning Era.
Regular dancing, freestyle dancing with a girl but then you would also do little moves to make yourself stand out. Very different than the next person to show you that you got a little bit more skills and also try to impress the female. I think a lot of that Burning started with, "Let me impress that girl and show her I know how to do something different than what everybody else is doing!" And then it became a thing were people got competitive with it and they would try to outdo each other and that's what the Burning phase was. I would say from my experience that this was around 1972 and even prior to that."

NORIN RAD:"Thank you! I heard that Kool DJ Herc did not only play breakbeats at his parties but also Slow jams, Hustle songs etc. Would Grandmaster Flash and Mean Gene do the same thing on your side of the Bronx?"

FUJI:"Oh definetely!  There was always slow jams...a portion of the party you would do slow dancing, you know? And then there was like hustle music....just regular music they would play from regular R&B groups or whatever. The party might start off with regular R&B music, regular dance music and then when the park was getting packed and the DJ looked around as more people started coming in and he saw enough people that were B-Boys then he would put on some B-Boy music so we could rock some, you know what I mean?! Then probably near the third quarter of the party they would throw on a couple of slow jams so people could get their little groove on, you know? Grinding on a woman and stuff like that! It was a well rounded party. There were people that did the Hustle..there were B-Boys that hustled as well. It wasn't like Breaking was the only dance we knew how to do. No! We were all-around dancers!"

NORIN RAD:"So what is your favourite B-Boy song of all times?"

FUJI:"Give It Up Or Turn It Loose" by James Brown!"

"Give It Up Or Turn It Loose" by James Brown (Album: "Sex Machine"; 1970 King Records)

                                      Interview with the Original Hiphop Hustle King Chip

Chip

                                                                       

NORIN RAD: "Where did you live at when you first went to Kool DJ Herc's parties?"

CHIP:"I was living on Washington Avenue. The neighbourhood was known as The Nine."

NORIN RAD:"Okay and which high school did you attend at that time?"

CHIP:"I went to Taft High School." 

NORIN RAD: "Do you recall the first time you went to a Kool Herc party? At which venue did you first see him?"

CHIP:" I think the first time...I think I went to a party over there in his neighbourhood. It had to be in that recreation room."

NORIN RAD: "What made you go there?"

CHIP:"Well, we all heard about it, you know,  'cause everybody was talking about it. The buzz was all over the place. We was going to the parties with DJ Smokey, you know, before I even went to Kool Herc. We kept hearing about Kool Herc's parties at school. That's why we were so anxious to go. All of us El Dorado Mike, The Ni**er Twins, Clark Kent..Clark Kent wasn't there first.. we would hear things so..even El Dorado Mike he had a friend..a guy named Whiz that would talk about Kool Herc. You know the buzz was all around so we said, "We gotta be there!" And then you know he had the block parties..the block parties were pumped up in the summer time. So we kept hearing about it and then we would go. One party we kept going."

NORIN RAD:"And what was so impressive about his parties that made you come back there again?"

CHIP:"Oh the girls! The girls!!! The music and the girls!!! He had some of the flyest girls there! And the music, you know..the speakers...the music was clear! He had certain records that I had never heard before and that music was like make you wanna to dance! The soundsystem was clear you could hear it from miles...before you even get to his party you could hear the music. And you know like a lot of hustlers went to Kool Herc's parties. Everybody was getting fly, getting dressed to go to his party." 

NORIN RAD: "When you talk about hustlers you are referring to guys that were into scrambling (drug dealing), right?"

CHIP:"Yeah, scramblers, yeah!"

NORIN RAD:"So what kind of vibe prevailed at his parties? Was there any kind of tension?"

CHIP:"Nah, it was more laid back. It was more laid back. You're being real kool, you got all the girls there...That's why it was so good 'cause all the tension was over where I lived at. So when we got to this neighbourhood it was all laid back."

NORIN RAD: "So it was like a welcome change 'cause the Nine had all the tension..."

CHIP:"Oh yeah, the Nine was more tension...you never know when something would jump off. When you get on the West Side (where Herc was at) it was kool....all the girls come in, you know?  All the hustlers are there. They're real kool, they got the sunrooftop cars..laying back, you know? Herc got the echo chamber on, you know..Coke La Rock is talking smack on the microphone...calling out different people names. So it's like a certain swagger. He called out your name... like, "Wow you're the man!!"

NORIN RAD:"What would these hustlers do at Kool Herc's parties? Would they dance or would they chill?"

CHIP:"Yeah! Some of them they danced, some of them they laid back, just chill. Got the nice clothes on, laid back...talking to the girls. You have some that really danced ...."

NORIN RAD: "And what about the B-Boys? I guess you saw them there, too."

CHIP:"Oh, no doubt! That was like the hall of fame. Nobody wasn't called B-Boys but you had certain people that..like I would turn around I would see Doug (Dancin' Doug) doing his thing or I might see Wallace Dee doing his thing....and then I'm there with the (Ni**er) Twins and they start doing their thing. You got different people that would be dancing. And then Herc might put on a certain record...like say for instance he would put on a Sasa (original B-Boy) record and everybody would see Sasa doing his thing. He would do a split move and a couple of moves...so that was so smooth about it. If Clark Kent is there he'd start and do his shit for a minute! And you'd be like, "WoW!!!!"Or I'm there and I'm dancing with Janet...doing the Hiphop Hustle and then I got my little circle. Every time you turn around you got somebody having a smooth moment you're looking at them. And then you got times when everybody is just dancing..."

NORIN RAD:"So when you came to Kool Herc's parties were they already doing the Hiphop Hustle dance  there ?"

CHIP:"Everybody would be doing it but you had certain other people that had certain moves...like a routine...and that's when I seen my dance partner (Janet Rock) doing it wih Rasheen and Rasheen I seen him doing it I was like, "Wow!" They had a certain style how they would be doing it and I said, "Aaah man, I gots to get to do that part, that routine that they do! I got to learn how to do it that way!"

NORIN RAD: "Could you please break down the difference beween what you refer to as Hiphop Hustle and the regular Hustle dance in terms of moves and the music it was done to?"

CHIP:"Alright...these are two different types! Hiphop Hustle is more like...the girl and the guy would be doing it in the same motion and the turns...sometimes..in the Hiphop Hustle the guy would swing around the girl like three times and stop and they'll put their hands up at the same time. The Disco Hustle...which I also did...when we would be going to a disco...  it was more spins and she'd be moving like a ballerina...the girl was spinning by herself like a ballerina coming back to you. So it was kinda like two different styles. On the Hiphop Hustle certain guys had certain styles..like when El Dorado Mike did it....he would take the girl and twirl her like real fast and bring her out and she'd move her hand...they'll go around in a circle like a...how can I say it... he had his hand around her waist and they'd be going around like dipping back and forth to the beat of the music.  Certain records they ( Kool Herc and Coke La Rock) would play you would be doing it to the music...moving the girl...When Herc played "Happy Music" (by The Blackbyrds)....you know depending on the music you can do it slow or do it fast." 

NORIN RAD:"So was there one general style of the Hiphop Hustle or did everybody have a unique approach to it?"

CHIP:"Well, there was one style everybody did. I took it to another level. Iwould take it up to a much higher level...me and Janet. You know, we had all kind of routines. Everybody else was probably doing it the same style."

NORIN RAD:"But you would definetely say that the Hiphop Hustle had its own identity that set it apart from the Disco Hustle, right?"

CHIP:"Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!!" (excited)

NORIN RAD:"At which point of the party would Kool Herc and Coke La Rock start playing the Hustle songs? In the beginning of it, in the middle or at the end?" 

CHIP:"Well, you can always do it. Any record..even those records that they breakdance to you can do the Hiphop Hustle to it. It wouldn't even matter. Some of the break records you can hustle to it!"

NORIN RAD:"Could you give me an example? "The Mexican" maybe?"

CHIP:"Yeah!"

NORIN RAD: "For real?"

CHIP:"The Mexican? Yeah!!"

NORIN RAD:"So I guess that's why it is referred to as Hiphop Hustle because it was parly also done to the B-Boy records, right?"

CHIP:"Yeah....'cause you can go right back into the Hiphop thing, into the Breaking! Say I can do the Hiphop Hustle and then I go off and start breaking. If you know how to break you can go right into it. What we call Burning you can go right into it and then you can go back to doing the Hiphop Hustle again."

NORIN RAD:"So what were some of the songs at Kool Herc's parties that the HipHop Hustle was done to? I know "Do You What You Gotta Do" by Eddie Drennon was one. ould you name some more?"
 

"Do You What You Gotta Do" by Eddie Drennon & B.B. S. Unlimited

CHIP: "Alright, you got "Body Talk" by Eddie Kendricks.... you have "Here Comes The Express" by B.T. Express...."Shifting Gears" by Johnny Hammond...then you had "Pursuit Of The Pimpmobile"(by Isaac Hayes)"...

NORIN RAD: What about this one ?" (plays "T Plays It Cool" by Marvin Gaye)

CHIP:"Thats that good shit! Everybody got down to that! Herc would put the Last Poets over that song..."

"T Plays It Cool" by Marvin Gaye

 

NORIN RAD: "What about this one? (plays "Dominoes" by Donald Byrd for Chip)

CHIP:"Oh yeah, that's Hiphop Hustle all the way!"

 NORIN RAD:" So what was the name of dance partner again?"

CHIP:"Janet. Kool Herc named her Janet Rock."

NORIN RAD: "How did you meet her?"

CHIP:"She was from Highbridge. We went to school together.  She went to Taft. She could break.. she was at all the block parties with her sister. They were both doublejointed. She could break with the best of them. Even her cousin used to dance together with Trixie."

NORIN RAD:"So she was breaking and also did the Hiphop Hustle?"

CHIP:"Yeah. I seen her dancing and as I said she was dancing with that guy named Rasheen. They was at a Herc party.. at a block party and they were doing a routine with the Hiphop Hustle. I knew how to do the other style (the Disco Hustle) and I told her, "Can you teach me that style?" And she took me in front of everybody and showed me how to do it and then I came into my own style with it with her 'cause it was a style where she goes back and forth with her leg and you have to stand still 'cause she be kicking her feet up in the air....putting it all the way behind her head. Sometimes she be moving her leg so fast it'd look like if she hit somebody she would knock him out and she'd be doing splits, you know? All kinds of stuff...She was very flexible."

NORIN RAD:"So would you say that Janet is responsible for creating that Hiphop Hustle dance style?"

CHIP:"Yeah."

NORIN RAD: Okay and how would one initiate that Hip Hop Hustle dance procedure? Would you ask a specific girl to dance with you or would you bring your dance partner with you?"

CHIP:"Sometimes we would all come to the party together. Like Janet..we would all come with her. She was funny..if we were going to the P.A.L.... sometimes she would be there with her sisters and she would ask everybody to chip in and we would put out a hat and we would put money in for her to get in. If I'm coming I want her to be there to do this dance 'cause it's gonna be my time to be in the spotlight. You know, I'm dressed from head to toe . I call her up , you know? Saying,"You gonna be there at Kool Herc!" You'll be mad if she don't show up! Like, "Ah man!" Or you gotta check the other girls that knew how to do it. They don't know how to do it as good as her but they know how to do it. So you would be doing it with them."

NORIN RAD: "How would you dress when you went to Herc's parties?"

CHIP:"I would wear nice leather shoes and I would wear AJs.... AJ stitch pants and a Alpaca sweater or I have on a cashmere coat or I have on a Cortefiel and I would wear a velour hat. "

NORIN RAD: "Is it true that back then you couldn't wear an outfit that got like 15 colours in it without being ridiculed?"

CHIP:"Yeah, you had to make sure you was color coordinated. They would tell you about it in a minute if you wasn't matching your colors."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, and how would the girls dress back then?"

CHIP: "Some of the girls they were fly! They had like the scarf..some of them would wear a medallion or they would wear those tennis dresses. They would never wear sneakers they would wear fly shoes and if they did wear sneakers they made sure that they'd be brand new."

NORIN RAD:"What kind of person was El Dorado Mike and what was your relationship with him?"

CHIP:" We was good friends. He would come up to my house and we would play records all day long.I mean I can remember when we would go to parties and I would drop him off to his girl's house or one of his girls house (laughs)...So we did a lot of things together."

NORIN RAD:"So he attracted a lot of girls back then?"

CHIP:"Oh yeah, definetely! And he was a hustler...he was a hustler... you know?! 170, you're getting that money!"

 NORIN RAD:"He was also a great hustle dancer from what I've heard."

CHIP:"Yeah, he was famous for that!"

NORIN RAD:"Where was he from?"

CHIP:"He was from 1-7-0. Webster Avenue."

NORIN RAD: "Did he also have a specific dance partner when it came to the Hiphop Hustle dance?"

CHIP:"That was so good about him 'cause he could grab any girl and make her look good."