Interview with B-Boy / MC Pow Wow ( The Zulu Kings )






                                           

Pow Wow (The Zulu Kings / The Soul Sonic Force MCees)

                                   conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders / Germany)


NORIN RAD:"From which part in the Boogie Down Bronx are you originally?"


POW WOW:"Well, I'm from the South Bronx."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, now where exactly in the South Bronx are you from?"

POW WOW:"I lived on Fulton Avenue just across town from Bronx River. It was like the Boston Road, Prospect Avenue, Franklin Avenue area. I was born and raised there but when it came down to hanging out  I just hung out everywhere, man."

NORIN RAD:"Where did you witness Breaking for the very first time?"

POW WOW:"Breaking...it was at a Kool Herc party. I was with a brother named Darryl Deas and another brother called Eldorado Mike...may they both rest in peace! They took me to Kool Herc.  So I went...it was at a place called The Twilight Zone. I went after that I just got addicted, man...I just got addicted. I got addicted to go there regularly and watch the Ni**er Twins, Sasa....ah man.. Dicey....I used to watch these cats just do their thing...Timmy Tim, Clark Kent...I watched them getting it in."

NORIN RAD:"So you would continue to attend Kool Herc's parties?"

POW WOW:"Oh yeah, I was very fortunate, man! Yeah, 'cause at that time I was a younging... I was like twelve, you know what I'm saying? Hiphop started in 1973 I was born in 1961....so I'm hanging with the big boys (laughs)."


NORIN RAD:"What made you pick up Breaking and how did you develop your skill set?"

POW WOW:"How I  got into Breaking was through Darryl and Eldorado Mike. They wasn't B-Boys like that in a sense but they knew how to do it and I used to watch them.  Darryl never hit the floor. Mike was playing around at the parties. He was a great Hustler..he used to breakdance a little bit too I just started doing it. Then I moved down from Fulton Avenue to Franklin Avenue that's where I met my man Marcus (Marcus Rockwell - another original Zulu King B-Boy) .We went to the same school together and he told me he was a B-Boy and at that time he was down with DJ Smokey and the Smoke-A-Trons and me and him we just clicked and we practiced and practiced until we got it and the rest is history, brother. Believe me, history!!"

NORIN RAD:"You are talking about Marcus Rockwell, right?"

POW WOW:"Yes, oh yes!!! The best B-Boy that ever lived! I seen them all, man. He's the King!"

NORIN RAD:"So you and him were like real tight? Like a team?"

POW WOW:"Yeah, that's right..like a team! Exactly!"

NORIN RAD:"Did you and Marcus Rockwell attend DJ Smokey's parties together?"

POW WOW:"Yeah, I been to DJ Smokey's house, to the parties in his house (on Grant Avenue)! I seen Flash...I also went to the parties in the basement on Garrison Avenue, Fort Apache....I am Hiphop! Trust me! I am Hiphop! I went to everybody.....everybody in the Bronx that had been in this I was there! Over The Dover...Smokey played Over The Dover. That's where you tested your B-Boy skills. He had only like 10 girls in there and all of them were B-Girls bringing it to them dudes, man!!!!! To me at that time the Smoke-A-Trons were the baddest B-Boy crew out....nobody was touching them! Not Casanovas, not Flash, not (Black) Avery, not (Bumpy Face) Melvin....nobody was touching these boys. They were over on Grant Avenue side and their leader was this guy named Ron. It was Ron, Kasiem, Sleepy, a dude named Bombay...  these guys caught my eyes. Ron, Kasiem and Sleepy were the deadly ones as far as dancing. And then what happened was..Ron started teaching me cause I had a lot of records. I would take them to his house and he would teach me how to dance. His favourite record was "Listen To Me" by Baby Huey. He taught me that hardcore B-Boy shit til one day we was on Grant Avenue (at one of DJ Smokey's parties) and I was dancing and then Ron jumped into the circle and I beat him! Yeah, I beat him! That's how I got so good! At times we just went around and danced against everybody and beat them. Kool Herc gave a party one day....in the park.... they were having a B-Boy contest to see who was the best. Me and my boy Marcus we won out of the big people. Out of the little guys that danced our disciple, our student..he won...Lil Keith! " 

NORIN RAD:"Little Boy Keith later on also joined the Zulu Kings, right?"

POW WOW:"Yeah, I used to teach Keith! Me and Marcus..that was our student."

NORIN RAD:"Were was Little Boy Keith from?"

POW WOW:"Little Keith was from the Hill. Me, Little Keith and Marcus and MC G.L.O.B.E. from The Soul Sonic Force that was down with me... I used to teach him how to B-Boy just as well....we was from the Hill. On 170th street & Franklin Avenue. That's where I lived. I never lived in Bronx River...I hung out in Bronx River....but that's my home....I hung out there. I used to teach the Zulu Kings how to dance...me and Marcus. They wasn't at the level that we was at. We're the first generation of Hiphop. We would go to Flash, Smokey and Kool Herc. BAMBAATAA WASN'T EVEN A DJ AT THIS TIME!!"

NORIN RAD:"So you were already dancing at a really early stage like 1973, 1974?"

POW WOW:"Exactly, exactly! 74, 75!! Trust me, brother!"

NORIN RAD:"And Marcus Rockwell used to be a part of the Smoke-A-Trons, right?"

POW WOW:"Yeah, he was with the Smoke-A-Trons, yeah! Then me and him started clicking together and we represented the Zulu Kings, you know? Cause we was hanging out in Bronx River and you know that was my peoples. He ran with me."

NORIN RAD:"Do you recall how you joined the Zulu Kings?"

POW WOW:"I was a Zulu since day one......day one!!! Zambu, Aziz, Ahmed, Squirpy (Shaka)..they were my brothers, yeah!"

NORIN RAD:"You see I'm asking this because when I spoke to Zambu he said that in the beginning they were five B-Boys and they called themselves the Zulu Masters...."

POW WOW:"Alright, alright...let me tell you about that....(laughs) That was a thing of Zambu, Ahmed, Aziz, Shaka and Kusa. I understand. See like I said I didn't live in Bronx River but all those five guys....you know, I hung with them in Bronx River. They all lived in the same building except for Shaka... in 1609... my brother lived in that building so I hung out with those guys over there. When they sat together....they got a crew with Bambaataa and Zulu Masters was the name they called themselves at first but then later they wind up with Zulu Kings. So when they were getting their Zulu names all that.....when they were doing that I was probably across town somewhere, you know? Doing what I do. I got around, I didn't stay at Bronx River. When I came back they said, "Yo, we got the Zulu Kings!! So and so, so. Of course you're down!" I was like, "What do you mean?" Of course I was down! I told Bambaataa- put this in your interview, don't edit shit...I'm keeping it real....some real exclusive shit...I told Bambaataa, "You know it's wrong that you got me coming like I'm a secondary motherfucker. I was teaching them how to dance, man!" I was teaching Ahmed, Zambu...me and Marcus. As I said we were part of the first generation of hiphop we got it from Kool Herc and his B-Boys. So by the time Bambaataa and all of them got real serious about it...we helped them to upgrade their skills.  I tried to keep them up-to-date with that.... that's why you know me and Marcus went around to all these clubs in the night....Over The Dover and Eightball Room and Black Door, 63 Park...all that real Bronx shit!!! Representing Zulu Kings!! The others didn't really leave out of Bronx River per se. Maybe Soundview and all that. They were burrying cats over there but when it came down to the big league they couldn't cut the cake. One time Flash gave a party in 123...and I got there late.. but when I got there you know it was showtime....the lights is on...the big circle...everybody is doing their thing and the Zulu Kings were dancing against the Casanova crew....and a kid told me Casanova Crew was beating Zulus....so I went to the circle and I said to myself, "I gotta do my thing!" So when I came there they really couldn't beat me and I danced against different Casanovas that night. Me and Marcus we dominated! We were the best dancers out of the whole Zulu Nation. Period! Nobody could beat us. Not for nothing, Norin...I don't try to boast cause I'm not a boaster. I'm a real cat but trust me it got to a point were when we got into a circle nobody was dancing anymore. Nobody was jumping in that circle anymore! People used to bet on us! That's how I made a lot of dough sometimes. One time they put 2000 dollars in our faces and said,"You take a stack and you take a stack! We wanna see you dance against each other!" But we was like, "Nah! That's my brother! I ain't dancing against my brother. Keep your dough!" We practiced every day, man! We used to go my house and take the furniture in my living room and put it in a circle and practice how to dance. My mother - may God rest her soul- she was calling us and knocking on the door because we were disturbing her because we were bumping on the floor and knocking things over sometimes. It got to a point where my mother wouldn't knock anymore.  That's how nice we got with this shit!!!! We put the furnitures closer and closer and closer because at a party   we wanted to be able to come out with our moves in big circles AND small circles. Me and my man we lived and breathed we lived that shit for real, man!!!!!"  

NORIN RAD:"I'm really interested in all those spots where original B-Boying was done at. Now you have already mentioned the Garrison and if I'm not mistaken you also made reference to a place called Fort Apache. That's in the South Bronx, right?"

POW WOW:"Yeah, yeah...exactly! On Fox street...that's where Flash used to set his stage up inside the boxing ring because the dancers were too close to him and that's where me and Marcus would go to...now see the Zulu Masters wasn't coming to parties like that. They wasn't coming to places like Fox street, Garrison Avenue....they wasn't coming there. As I said I lived on Fulton Avenue. It started in our hood...now Herc started it but Smokey and Flash took it over, man!" 

NORIN RAD:"Who are some of the unsung B-Boys from back then that you feel deserve more credit than they usually receive?"

POW WOW:"Oh okay..I got you! I mentioned some cats already...Ron, Kaseem, Sleepy, Bombay, Little Barney...ah man....Little Shawn...also KK Rockwell and Keith Cesar  (legendary MCees from the Funky Four), DJ Breakout.....I used to teach them how to dance in my house! (laughs) There's a lot of guys that are unsung that were some good dancers, man!"


NORIN RAD:"Which B-Boys stood out to you at Flash's parties? "

POW WOW:"Flash had like Flipping Mike, RC, Avery, Mean Gene .....Theodore's brother (Pow Wow refers to DJ Mean Gene and Grandwizard Theodore of the legendary L-Brothers)...yeah Mean Gene was a very good dancer when he used to do it....Melle Mel..he was a B-Boy.....It goes on and on....you had different cats in different sections... Uptown.....Cholly Rock to me was the fucking man!!!!  I tell you a story....One day Flash...Grandmaster Flash he gave a party Uptown in the Valley so me and a couple of guys from Bronx River and the girls that I used to teach Clarissa, Barabara and Trina we all went to The Valley and it was showtime in the circle. 
 

Haffen Park, Uptown BX in Hiphop known as The Valley

We heard all this noise ...there was someone killing them all in the circle... so we went to see who that was. Cholly Rock!!!! TEARING IT UP!!!!!! (laughs) He danced.. so then he said, "Yo!!!" He told his people, "Yo, that's my man from downtown I was telling you about!" He said, "Where is Marcus?" I said, "Marcus ain't here." So then me and Cholly Rock....Flash played "Juju Man"that day .....me and Cholly Rock turned the Valley out so bad!!!!!!! Believe me!!!! On the west side of the Bronx there was this guy named Herm. He was a bad dude! He beat me once! He beat me once!! I came back and I beat him but we never had that third battle. Herm was bad!!"

"Juju Man" by Passport (Norin Rad's Beat Stash)

NORIN RAD:"Where did that battle between you and Herm take place at?"

POW WOW:"Where me and Herm danced at was a place called The Eight Ball Room. Grandmaster Caz from the Cold Crush Brothers....at that time he was known as DJ Casanova Fly...."

NORIN RAD:"Yes, when was rocking with the Mighty Force Crew." 

POW WOW:"Yeah, yeah...he had a spot called Eight Ball Room on University Ave up in the Bronx....on the west side of the Bronx and Herm was part of his crew.I mean there was a lot of bad B-Boys from Bronx River area, too! Don't get me wrong. Like Beaver....my little man...my little brother. DJ Cool Clyde.... he had a brother named P-Body...his name was John but we called him P-Body cause he wore thick glasses. A bad dancer!!! There were a lot of bad dancers I'm telling you!"

NORIN RAD:"So how long were you on top of your game?"

POW WOW:"As I said I got into it in 1974. Trixie, Sasa those were the people I watching (at Kool Herc's parties). I was watching them cats. These were the cats doing it before even I got involved in it.  I was watching them and I was like, "OH SHIT!!!!! THAT SHIT IS HOT!!!!" And then I also told you about Ron, Kaseem and Sleepy from The Smoke-A-Trons. Man, I remember one night at Over The Dover... Ron tore that cat Little Barney a new asshole. That was a battle! A real B-Boy battle! That's what I call a B-Boy! Going to a party testing the waters. Like, "Let me see what you got, motherfucker!" Jumping into the circle....showtime!!!! But yeah..1974, 1975 to 1976/77. That's when I was reigning."

NORIN RAD:"What was your relationship with the Shaka Zulu B-Boys back then?"

POW WOW:"Shaka Zulus...they were our brothers. They challenged the Zulu Kings one day. It was about ten or fifteen of them against us. We tore their ass up! In 123 School.. we tore them up! But see they didn't stand a chance in the first place."

May 27th,1977; JHS 123: The Zulu Kings battle against the Shaka Zulus

 
NORIN RAD: "Mr. Wiggles from The Rock Steady Crew told me that back in 1984 when they were filming Beat Street you showed him a move called the Double Sweep which he referred to as the first Flare he had ever seen. What do you remember about that?"

POW WOW:"Yeah, I was the one who started that! Me and Marcus we started a lot of breaking moves back then. I had a move where I took my left foot and swung it forward and took my right and swung it backwards like (makes a noise) patat-patat-patat.....Me and Marcus we were Boioing Kings, man!"

NORIN RAD:"How did the music affect you back then at the parties?"

POW WOW:"I do what I do...I don't know. The music hit me and you just do what you do like....getting possessed...like getting possessed with something...it just comes to get you!!! The music just comes to get you and your body just reacts to it  and you just dance, man!"

NORIN RAD:"I see. Could you name your favourite B-Boy Joint of all times?"

POW WOW:"(chuckles) My favourite...well....it's a few of them but the favourite one to me was James Brown "Give It Up Or Turn It Loose"...that's my favourite of all time...that...."Listen To Me", "It's Just Begun"....Alvin Cash "Keep On Dancing"....."On Top Of It" by All Directions....Bambaataa played some Funk...uuh.....that made you move, believe me!"

 

DJ Afrika Bambaata (Founder of the Zulu Nation & Master Of Records)

NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard B-Boying faded away in the late 1970ies and the MCees took over. You were one of those B-Boys that went on to become a legendary MC as a member of The Soul Sonic Force. What made you quit Breaking and pick up MCing?"

POW WOW:"What made me quit B-Boying was I had nobody to dance against. It wasn't nobody to dance against anymore and a change came. The microphone...people started MCing. I liked it so I said, "Okay, this is the next step in this shit." I got down with it and this is history just as well."

                                                             END OF PART ONE