INTERVIEW WITH THE ORIGINAL B-BOY ROSSY A.K.A PIXIE (TRIXIE'S BROTHER)



                                                      

                                       conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders / Germany)



NORIN RAD:"Where did you get that name Pixie from?"

PIXIE:"I took it from my brother Trixie. It was Trixie and Pixie..."

NORIN RAD:"So your big brother was the one who showed you the ropes in terms of breaking, right?"

PIXIE:"No, I just used to watch him. I used to watch him.. He never taught me anything."

NORIN RAD:"Okay...and where did you watch him doing his dance? At Kool Herc's parties or  in your house?"

PIXIE:"We used to dance on our block. Like, like back in the days they used to put music out the windows and we used to go in front of this guy's house who would play real loud music out of his window  and we would dance in front of his window! And that's where we used to practice at.....outside....in the street."

NORIN RAD:"Alright, and what made you pick up breaking in the first place? Did that also start on your block back then?" 

PIXIE:"That's when we first started breakdancing...in our neighbourhood... then we started going to the parties for breakdancing but we could do it on our block!  Right on our block!"

NORIN RAD:"I see and were you and Trixie the only ones breakdancing on your block at that time?"

PIXIE:"No!!!! The whole neighbourhood!!! Everybody! We were just real good at it but everybody used to do it. Yeah!! Everybody! Then when my brother (Trixie) got so popular and got all the girls....that's what I wanted...I wanted all the girls...so I said to myself, "I can do all this, too!" (starts laughing)

NORIN RAD:"Did you take some of your brother's move and incorporate it into your set?"

PIXIE:"No. I never used my brother's moves. I used to do flips in the air and all that type of stuff. My brother..we danced totally different...yeah totally different."

NORIN RAD:"What were your signature moves back then? Like I heard everybody was doing characters back then..."

PIXIE:"I did the Underdog, the Frankenstein and the Wind Up Dummy."

NORIN RAD:"What kind of a move was that??"

PIXIE:"Yeah, you wind me up like you're winding up a toy and then when they stop I spin around all out of control." 

NORIN RAD:"Did you come up with the Underdog or was that originally Clark Kent's concept ?"

PIXIE:"Kool Herc gave Clark Kent his name because of his glasses. The Underdog was something that me and Timmy came up with."

NORIN RAD:"From what I have heard in the very beginning breakdancing was done mainly on top and then gradually went on to become a dance that was focused more on floormoves...."

PIXIE:"Yeah! Trixie had everything on top! He used to do the shit on top!! He would do the shit that would shake your body! And I guess we....the rest of us....went down to the ground!"

NORIN RAD:"You've told me that you were like real close to the late Timmy Tim (Original B-Boy and also DJ for The Herculords), right?"

PIXIE:"Timmy...that was my dance partner!"

DJ Timmy Tim (The Herculords) a.k.a B-Boy Dixie

NORIN RAD:"Okay, do you recall the first time you and him ever met?"

PIXIE:"My man Timmy! I met Timmy walking through my neighbourhood...he came through my block and he had the music. Like everybody else he was just there, listening to the music and watching us dancing. So everyday he came through my block and then me and him got real close."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, and how would you describe his style of breaking? Like what were the moves and routines that he was famous for back then?"

PIXIE:"Everything I did he did! We used to practice..me and Timmy we used to practice! We actually used to go in...into a room, sit down, dance, practice and then do everything at the parties."
 
NORIN RAD:"Where exactly would you and Timmy practice at?"

PIXIE:"My house...his house. Mostly his house 'cause he had the music. Timmy had the same music Herc would play so every Saturday we were prepared! I had a bed in Timmy's house. We were like brothers."

NORIN RAD:"So I guess music must have played a big role in your life back then, right? Did you go record shopping together?"

PIXIE:"No, Timmy used to go record shopping. Not me."

NORIN RAD:"But he would show you the beats that he had discovered, right?"

PIXIE:"Oh yeah, definetely! James Brown...all that! All that"

NORIN RAD:"And so you are saying that your style of dancing was very similar?"

PIXIE:"Same Style!"

NORIN RAD:"I see....would you help each other in battles? Like when one of you went against somebody else in a circle?"

PIXIE:"No, me and Timmy never battled against people! We used to just go to the parties and dance in the circle. We didn't battle. My first battle was with Clark Kent (legendary B-Boy / DJ from The Herculords). That's the only battle I ever had. Cause we used to just do the big circles! The big circles were where you wanted to be in back in the days. You wanted all the people around you with the big circle and if you had the big circle you was it!!!  That's all we used to look for. It was about having the biggest circle and everybody watching you!"

NORIN RAD:"I hear what you are saying but Sasa told me that he remembered one night at the Twilight Zone where you and Timmy Tim would go against him and try to double team him!"

PIXIE:"Oh yeah....I remember that (chuckles)!  Me and Timmy Tim got at him!! We switched up on him...like every ten seconds we switched!"


NORIN RAD:"I see.. I think Sasa also said that Timmy Tim would take out a spray can during that battle and then set it on fire trying to burn him. What do you remember about that?"

PIXIE:"Yeah....with a match!!! (laughs) No, that wasn't Timmy that was me! Yeah I used to take the match and the hair spray and light it to get the fire...the big flame!"

NORIN RAD:" I guess this was part of that whole aspect of trying to intimidate your opponent during a battle back then, right?"

PIXIE:"Yeah...always... always intimidate them!" 

NORIN RAD:"So who won that battle?"

PIXIE:"We stopped. It never got off because the way it was going we never got the circle to battling. We didn't get the spotlight to battle. Like you normally get the spotlight to battle. We just chopped at him while he was out there dancing. So that never finished. Me and Timmy doubleteamed him and killed this shit but it was never an official battle because we wasn't in front of the stage. Normally, when you battle somebody you gotta be in front of the stage and you put that circle around you and Kool Herc and Coke La Rock be on top...they see you battling but that time with Sasa was in the back of the party and we just chopped at him, yeah!"     

NORIN RAD:"What kind of a spot was the Twilight Zone?"

PIXIE:"The Twilight Zone... you would walk up the steps then get inside. You had a big dancefloor and then you had a stage where Kool Herc and Coke La Rock would be. They would have a light...if you were in the circle and you were dancing and if they put the spotlight on you then everybody would stop dancing and make that circle bigger. Now back in the days the bigger your circle the bigger you are! And I'mma tell you right now nobody had a circle bigger than Trixie! Trixie had the biggest circles ever! When Trixie danced nobody else in the party danced. Everybody was in that circle. I might be dancing in a circle or whatever and people would still be partying but when Trixie went under that light nobody else was partying anymore. That's how you know who you are! How big your circle is...I had some big circles too tough. Me and Timmy we had circles....listen, I never had to pay one dollar to get into a party!" 

NORIN RAD:"How did you carry yourself back then as a B-Boy?"

PIXIE:"The way I carried myself...I was like a pretty boy, a young pretty boy and I had all the young girls. I had all the young girls and I had swag!!! I had swag that was out of this world."

 NORIN RAD:"So was it important back then to have a certain swag? To come across self-confident and strong?"

PIXIE:"You had to! You had to! If you didn't you was weak, you was nobody!!! You had to be real strong when you walked in a party....even after the party. Like when the people saw you..you had to be really confident of who you were! You had to look at your clothes before you came outside like,"Yo! Am I right? Yeah, I'm right!!" You know? "Did I do this right for this party? Yeah, I did this right!" You just couldn't go out any kind of way!"     


NORIN RAD:"Timmy Tim's B-Boy name was Dixie, right?"

PIXIE:"Yeah!"

NORIN RAD:"So that means you were called Pixie & Dixie?"

PIXIE:"Right!"

NORIN RAD:"Where did he get that name from?"

PIXIE:"We took that off from my brother. As I said my brother was Trixie the baddest breakdancer in the Bronx! He was the King of all Kings! Listen, he was the man! So I said, "Okay, my name is Pixie and your name is Dixie! We both come from Trixie!" Trixie, Pixie and Dixie!" 

NORIN RAD:"Did that name have anything to do with that cartoon series "Pixie & Dixie" from the 1960ies?" (Shout Outs To Zulu King Cholly Rock for pointing that out to me!)

PIXIE:"(laughs) Yeah, that's where we got it from! Right there!"

Pixie & Dixie

NORIN RAD:"Chip and your brother Trixie told me that you and Timmy Tim used to do team routines when you were dancing at the parties back then. Could you describe some of those routines please?"

PIXIE:"Ah man, we used to get on the floor and act like we would row a boat! We started that! We would paddle past each other...then we grab each other's leg and hand and row. We used to row around the whole damn dance floor! And then that's when the Frankenstein came in I would lie down...Timmy would lift my head up and my whole body would be stiff and then I would act like Frankenstein and choke somebody."


NORIN RAD:"I know that Timmy Tim was a DJ for Kool Herc but did he also do parties on his own?"

PIXIE:"Before he got down with Kool Herc me and Timmy used to have parties. Since I was a B-Boy...me and him we were B-Boys...number one B-Boys.. we could get some crowd to come to the party. So that's how the parties got filled up. Everybody coming to see us breakdancing." 

NORIN RAD:"Could you please tell me where that spot used to be at in which Timmy Tim rocked these parties?"

PIXIE:"Okay, Timmy's parties used to be on Ogden Avenue & University. It was like a little celllar. It was like a basement party. We had an arrangement so he could do his parties. They were nice! They wasn't no Kool Herc event  but we had a good bunch of young girls in there... our age. See, at Kool Herc's we used to party with all the older people. But when me and Timmy started it we had all the people of our age coming. Then when we got a little older Timmy started DJing for Herc."

NORIN RAD:"I see and how many people fit in that cellar?"

PIXIE:"Maybe thirty."

NORIN RAD:"What were your five most favourite beats to get down to back in the Kool Herc days?"

PIXIE:"James Brown......Sex Machine ("Give It Up Or Turn It Loose"), wait a minute..."The Mexican"....that was my favourite!!! Ohio Players "Fire"!! (enthusiastically hums the tune) Yeah, "Fire" brought me out! That's the song I came out on! That's how I got my name! Let's see..there was so much music out there back then. "Rock Creek Park"!!!"


NORIN RAD:"What about "Apache"?

PIXIE:""Apache"!!! You got it. That's it right there!"  

NORIN RAD:"Alright, now what was the first Kool DJ Herc party like that you ever went to?"

PIXIE:" 1520 Sedgwick Avenue in the park....that was my first party! My brother (Trixie) stood on top of the stairs there and they put a light on him and man the fucking girls went craaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzyy!!!!!!!!!!!!! He came down the stairs and they opened up the circle.. he jumped in and started breakdancing and the crowd went absolutely crazy!!!!!! That's when I was like, "That's what I want to do!" Man, that guy was like....he was like Michael Jackson!!!!!!

NORIN RAD:"Oh shit!!!!!!"


PIXIE:"Yeah, man!!! (excited) Oh my god, it was like...it was something I will never forget in my life! NEVER....EVER!!!"     

The legendary Trixie

NORIN RAD:"Did you ever get involved in Graffiti ( I know the correct term is Writing...Shout Outs to Phase 2!)? I'm asking this because your brother Trixie told me that he was close with El Marko 174 and I know that Kool Herc and his sister Cindy were also Writers at some point in time...?"

PIXIE:"Yeah, my name was BABYFACE!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh! I guess you were doing mostly insides, right?"

PIXIE:"Nah, on the train! On the outsides of the trains...yeah! BABYFACE!"

NORIN RAD:"So growing up in the Bronx back then doing Graffiti and Breakdancing was something that went kind of hand in hand for some?"

PIXIE:"The breakdancing and that? Yeah!"

NORIN RAD:"So you already called yourselves B-Boys back in the Kool Herc era?"

PIXIE:"Yeah, we were B-Boys and it was called breakdancing."

NORIN RAD:"There is something I need to ask you with regards to the origin of the dance. There is this narrative that Breaking has its roots in Brooklyn Rocking. Allegedly, people from the Bronx would go to a club in Downtown Manhattan called "Starship Enterprise" in 1974 and they would see all the Brooklyn Rock dancers there and unsuccessfully tried to copy their style.  The sloppy result of this attempt was Breaking.What is your take on that?"


PIXIE:"That's a lie! That's lie! The Bronx started B-Boying. Everybody else came in later."

NORIN RAD:"There you have it! Coming from an Original B-Boy from the Kool Herc parties..."

PIXIE:"I'm a original B-Boy! That's right! The only borough that was breakdancing with us was Manhattan because of Dougie Doug (aka Dancing Doug)! Dougie Doug is from Manhattan. So Manhattan and the Bronx was where that started at. But it all started in the Bronx. It did not start in Manhattan. Manhattan came to the Bronx! I don't know nobody from Brooklyn that came to no party out here in the Bronx!!! 1520 Sedgwick Avenue was where it all started. Then later you also had other guys in the Bronx that would put music out and people would just start breakdancing but Kool Herc was the official for the B-Boys, right? If you was breakdancing and all that and you didn't breakdance at a Kool Herc party you were nobody."

B-Boy Rossy aka Pixie today

 



 

 




  






 

                                Interview with the Original DJ Kool Joe  ( The M&M Crew) 




                                                       

DJ Kool Joe (The M&M Crew)

NORIN RAD:"Where in the Bronx did you grow up at?"

DJ KOOL JOE:" I grew up in the South Bronx...the Tremont area...Eastside.. Tremont area...West Farms area."

NORIN RAD:"And the specific name of that place where you lived at was Lambert Houses, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes! Yes! The Lambert Houses...We had Lambert Houses and then we also  had Bronx River which was another Hiphop location..ummh...maybe..walking distance probably 15 minutes...15-20 minutes...Southern Boulevard..there we had another location where we would have Hiphop parties."

Lambert Houses

NORIN RAD:"Alright, now what was your first encounter with B-Boying?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh man! Well, my brother....my big brother...he used to hang out with a guy  named Andre....he was called One Eyed Andre and another guy named Shawn and another guy named Ray....and they used to go to Kool Herc's parties and then they used to come home. They used to B-Boy in front of a mirror...before going to a Kool Herc party and I used to sit in the room and watch them and then I began B-Boy and I got me a little B-Boy Crew..we were called Kool Joe & The Oreos....We had evolved over into another style of Breaking..My brother and them... when they were B-Boying they wouldn't hit the floor back then."

NORIN RAD:"They were mainly Top Rocking, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Right! Right! It was Freestyle Top Rock....and then it evolved and that's when I got involved in it...that's when they started hitting the floor and doing the spins and whatnot.."

NORIN RAD:"And so your crew was named after those Oreo cookies?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yeah! Kool Joe and The Oreos! (laughs)"

NORIN RAD: "Okay, and who were the members of The Oreos?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"We had Hutch...DJ Scooter...well, he became DJ Scooter...these guys were B-Boying with me and we evolved into DJing and MCing. The same guys..we had Hutch, Scooter...a guy named Count..we called him Count..his name was Jeff Count...Then we had a guy named Easy E...he also became one of my MCees." 

NORIN RAD:"Now as far as I know the real first generation B-Boys used to do a lot of routines when they were dancing.....like routines and doing characters. Was that something that your brother Morris (May he Rise In Paradise) and One Eyed Andre used to as well?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Right!!!! Yes! They used to dance....what would you say...pretty much in a choreographed way.  At the same time....doing the same moves, you know? I used to watch them in the living room before they to went out to a Kool Herc party..they was getting ready....I was too young to go out then. And they would get their clothes out the cleaners and change their clothes and my mom had this big mirror in the living room covering the whole wall.  They would practice their routines before they went out."

NORIN RAD:"I'm glad that you have mentioned One Eyed Andre because this name keeps popping up again and again. I heard Fuji (The D-Squad) one of Grandmaster Flash's elite B-Boys mentioning him among many others. What kind of guy was One Eyed Andre and what was your relationship with him? Oh, where did that name come from?"

DJ KOOL JOE:" Oh, One Eyed Andre was a great guy! Actually Andre..we were in the same neighbourhood before moving to Lambert. I knew him before he moved to Lambert Houses..His eye...he was struck in the eye with a lead pencil and his eye was pretty much..it wasn't out...just grey....he couldn't see out of it...I moved to one side of Lambert which was on 180th street..me and my family...his family lived on 1026 which was across the street and they lived on the second floor and he was a very good guy..humble...Andre was very humble and he was also a great singer. He could sing his tail off. Yeah, good humble guy...everybody loved Andre. He was a very good dancer...a veeeeery good dancer! All his moves were on top! He never hit the floor though..and I used to mimic them before I started B-Boying with my crew...I used to mimic them so I LEARNT TO DANCE ON TOP FIRST before I started to hit the floor...so I kinda evolved with it."


NORIN RAD:"What kind of routine or move was One Eyed Andre famous for?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"He was famous for that leg swing. He would take one leg and he would rock it from the back to the front and he would do top body movements at the same time. This was one of his signature moves."

NORIN RAD:"I see....and I guess your brother, Andre and them would also dress up fly when they went out to party, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Ah man, what are you talking about, man??!!!! (EXCITED) You're talking about Playboys and Mercury pants.....and AJ Lester... Cortefiel Coats, come man!!! We're talking about Mocknecks...yo, we're talking about double knits. They shopped a lot in Harlem on 125th street at a store called AJ Lester. If you were fly you shopped at AJ Lester's!!! That's what they said back then,"If you're fly you shop at AJ Lester!" So they stayed  clean, man.. they stayed clean!"



NORIN RAD:"It is interesting to see that within your family the evolution of Breaking is quite evident as your brother Morris danced exclusively on top and then you followed him also taking the danceform to the floor. Would you also dress like your brother or would you rock different kind of gear?"

DJ Kool Joe:"Well, it was a little different for us. We looked fly but we wouldn't dress...we were a different kind of fly. When I danced I danced in...do you remember the space jackets? The old space jackets? They were all silver like you were going to the moon...yeah, we danced in stuff like that...you know, hoodies, Adidas sweatpants, Lee Jeans, Pro-Keds....until I got a little older and then I started dressing pretty much like my brother. You know, and he was like a father figure to me and he started to buy a lot of clothes for me as well. "

NORIN RAD: "So around which time where you and the Oreos in full effect in terms of Breaking?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"We're talking about 1977, 1978."


NORIN RAD:"Thank you! And which were some of the venues that you would dance at back then?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh man, me and my crew we were coming to battle everybody. Wherever there was a party we're showing up. We're coming to get'em! You know we were going to Bronx River parties and there was a guy called Beaver (legendary B-Boy from The Little Zulu Kings) who was a great dancer and there was also a couple of other guys out there that were great. Bambaataa would be rocking...Apache was the number one song... and whoever was dancing they would open up the circle a little bit more when we were coming and we would just dive on in!!! And they would save me for last! The Oreos went first and then when our opponents brought out their baddest dancer that's when I came out and did my thing. We just wanted to have fun and that's we did! We had fun! We came home and talked about it all week.. in school and stuff like that. Actually, I was a tiny bit older than the rest of the crew and we would talk about it in the neighbourhood 'cause you know when we'd come out the house we'd come out to hang with each other and we would just talk about it, you know?! And we pretty much had our fans in the neighbourhood that loved us and they would circle around us  and hear our stories about what happened at the parties. We lived and breathed it, man! We'd come outside....and we'd come out with our boombox and hang out and dance in front of the building at night and we'd have a big circle and we would have other B-Boys coming over from Bronx River or B-Boys  from Castle Hill or from 800 Southern Boulevard that wanted to battle us right there! And we would do the same thing...come to their neighbourhood just as well and just jump in the circle and battle!"

NORIN RAD:"Okay, could you explain to me please where those beats came from that you were blasting from your boombox at those late night B-Boy sessions?"


DJ KOOL JOE:"Well, we would go to parties to record those beats. We would just go to Bambaataa's parties at Bronx River or wherever he was partying and record his music. Or sometimes we would get our hands on something that was recorded, you know, because back then they also sold cassette tapes. They gave parties and they did the system and recorded it and people purchased it. Or you would bring your boombox and just go ahead and record the music from where you were standing. You want to remember that music passed through different hands, through different neighbourhoods so it wasn't so much about paying for it. It was like who do you know and who knows who and who had what music and who had what beat on their cassette...and it was a lot about just exchanging music through cassettes."

 Boombox from the late 1970s

NORIN RAD:"How did you transition into DJing from B-Boying?"


DJ KOOL JOE:"Like I said...my crew that I breakdanced with also evolved into DJing with me. I got interested in DJing with one of my dancers called Scooter....Scooter Rock....his name was DJ Scooter Rock and me and Scooter Rock wanted to DJ so bad. We had two old turntables...I had one from my mom's house and he had one from his mom's house and we put them together without a mixer. And we would turn the volume down from one to the other and the headphones just as well...so we would scratch one and take the headphone out from that one and put it into the next stereo and scratch that one and turn that one down vice versa."


NORIN RAD:"What made you choose the name "The M&M Crew" and which year was that?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"That was like in '78. My brother...my older brother which was M&M...he managed a record store on Crotona Avenue and he wasn't into DJing at the time and he was making very good money and I brought him to Scooter's house one day and he would watch what we was doing and so he really got interested in it. You know, he's like, "Wow! You guys are good!" Like I said he was like a father figure to me and he bought a lot of clothes for me....he took me to Fordham Road and he bought me two 1100 Technics turntables...direct drive..and he bought me a mixer just as well...it was a Gemini. And we started DJing on that. From there the rest of the equipment started developing and my brother got very interested in it as well so we called it "The M&M Crew"...DJ Kool Joe & The M&M Crew  It was his name M&M but I was more of the first DJ....I did most of the routines with the MCees."

NORIN RAD:"Who were the MCees of the M&M Crew? Like the hardcore members 'cause I have seen various line-ups on different flyers..."

DJ KOOL JOE:"Ah man,  I would have to say my first MCees, man, because they were more dedicated. I got to say MC Hutch, EZ E, Jimmy Joe and MC L.A. L.A. he stayed at 800 down there by Southern Boulevard and one day he just came when we were rocking and he just got down with us." 

NORIN RAD:"Alright, and did the MC section of your crew have their own specific name?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes! They were the Force Four. This was the title:  DJ M&M, DJ Kool Joe & The Force Four MCees."  

The M&M Crew

NORIN RAD:"How long did this line up of the Force Four MCees stay with you?"

DJ KOOL JOE:" I would have to say 1980 because we did do a party at the Audobon Ballroom with Melle Mel, Kid Creole and Mr. Ness (all MCees of the legendary Furious Five) and the Force Four. That was in 1979 and after that the MCees started diversing."

NORIN RAD:"Would your MCees also do routines like the Furious Four/Five and the Funky Four did?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh yes, we had several routines..several routines and MC Hutch wrote most of them. EZ E wrote a few. We had a couple of routines and then also a little dancing in it."

                                                   

MC HUTCH (The M&M CREW)

NORIN RAD:"That's quite interesting to hear because nowadays when you go to see a Rapper perform live all  he usually does while rapping is merely walking up and  down the stage but it seems as if back then DJ / MC performances were like real shows....something exciting to watch which must have required a lot of effort to be put in."

DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes sir! Routines included dance moves just as well!! And actually I caused a lot of the dance moves of the MCees....we would start off with something slow like Commodores "Zoom"....(hums the melody) and they would make their moves to that beat and after we would do that then we would change into something faster ...a little dancing...and then we would begin with the rap routine."


NORIN RAD:"Do you recall how often you and your MCees would meet up back then in order to practice your shows?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"We lived and breathed  it, man! When we came home from school we would get right to it. Straight like that! We didn't do it in the house if we wanted to do more...more than what we can do in the house...like the routines we were talking about with the dance steps...we would go to our school which was called I.S. 167....they would let us bring our equipment there and we would just do our routines for whoever was at the gym that day...playing basketball or whatever...or they would just let us have the cafeteria to let us do what we needed to do. Or we just go to Lambert Center and do it there while kids were playing pool, you know stuff like that..."

NORIN RAD:"I see...and what were your regular stomping grounds back then? At which spots would you perform regularly? I guess I.S. 167 and Lambert Center were two of these spots, right? "


DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh yeah, we would do it right across the street at Bronx Park. Bronx River had their location which was in the middle of the projects. We would  even do it in the middle of our projects which was called The Half. We would call it the Half because that's where the projects split up between each side. And everybody would meet at The Half anyway so...it was like a big space with a basketball court and we would do it there, man! We would do our parties there or in Bronx Park which is located right connected  to the Bronx Zoo. We would have people come from all over to our parties."

October 20th, 1979: DJ Kool Joe & The Force Four rock with DJ Afrika Islam and his Funk Machine Crew

                                                   

November 23rd, 1979: The M&M Crew rocks at Bronx River Center

NORIN RAD:"When you started DJing you didn't do backspinning but i guess you would adapt that technique later on, right?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Never!! I always thought it was cheating! I always thought it was cheating! And I consider myself to be the best. We were looked at as the underdogs but I always proved myself to be the best DJ! I just thought it was cheating. I used to practice whatever I heard anybody do I used to go to my room and try to do it double....faster...or with one hand!!!  I never enjoyed spinning back. I picked that needle up and dropped it right there on the dime! When you heard people spinning with Flash and Theodore and cats like that...when you heard them spinning...they would catch "Scratching" (classic Breakbeat by the Magic Disco Machine)..I would pick the needle up on that! I'm not spinning that back! You have to remember from back when we were talking a little while ago  I used to have to take the headphone out of one turntable and put it into the other turntable and put the volume down as well to mix and that would develop the speed for me when I got to a mixer. I didn't have to move the headphones anymore. It was just natural for me to be fast. I never liked spinning. I tried it once or twice and I didn't like it."

NORIN RAD:"Let's talk about some of the rules of DJing back then so that the younger cats out there understand what this artform is truly all about. Why would DJs hide the labels of their records back then?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Man, back then EVERYBODY WANTED TO HAVE THE MOST BEATS! You know, so everybody was hiding their labels 'cause they didn't want anybody to know the name of their beats 'cause then you would have the beat. So if I went to a Kool DJ AJ party or a Bambaataa party or Flash party and I'm standing close enough to the tuntable and your record wasn't covered I could see the name of it and I can go get it. That was the secret to that."

NORIN RAD: "Was that also the reason why DJs would put a rope around their set?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Right. Well, not only that....the rope was just for the crew. We would separate ourselves from the audience. You know, we were the crew so if you wasn't down with the crew or you wasn't affiliated with carrying equipment or with the MCees or with one of us you wouldn't come behind the rope."


NORIN RAD:"How difficult was it back then to get two copies of the same record in order to cut up a beat? Were there stores carrying multiple copies of various albums?"

DJ KOOL JOE:"Well actually they did have it in a record store. There were particular record stores that the DJs went to. There was this place called The Downstairs and there was this young guy called Elroy and if you became his friend....if he was kool with you he would sell you the best beats."

NORIN RAD:"Oh, so Elroy knew about beats?"

DJ KOOL JOE: "Right, and if you wasn't kool with Elroy you wouldn't get no beats. (chuckles) And back then beats were very expensive...we would pay up to 20 -25 dollars just for a snippet of a beat on a whole album. So it was difficult to buy two of them. And not only to that...we came up with a secret a lot of the beats that were being played were from old songs that our mom and dad used to play. I told my crew and those affiliated with us to raid their parents' record collection and we would get together in my house and play each one.. every side until we found a beat. And a lot of times the beats that we would catch would be something that Bambaataa (the Master of Records) played. We would be like, "Oooooh, that's it!!!!! We got it! We got it! Look at that!!!!" You know? Whatever we could use we used it."

NORIN RAD:"So you would actually listen to a lot of different albums trying to find beats that you could use for your parties?"


DJ KOOL JOE:"That's right! Beats like The Average White Band "Cut The Cake" I was one of the first DJs to ever play that beat! I took that beat to the Audobon with Flash and Theodore were side by side with me DJing  and I put that song on and everybody went crazy. That's the first time they heard that record, I'm telling you!!"

 

                         Interview with the Original B-Boy Beaver (The Little Zulu Kings)






                                                             

Beaver (The Little Zulu Kings)

                                                           

NORIN RAD:"Where did you get that name "Beaver" from?"

BEAVER:"My grandmother gave me that name as a nickname." 

NORIN RAD:"When did you start breaking?"

BEAVER:"In the mid seventies."

NORIN RAD:"What was your relationship with Afrika Bambaata and the Zulu Kings back then when you first started?"


BEAVER:" We all grew up together. It all started in Bronx River Circle where Afrika Bambaataa would play music through his window. He lived in my building 1595 on the first floor. His window was on the side facing the Circle and Bronx River Center.  He would put one or two speakers outside of his windows and he would play different beats and that's when we would start breakdancing. Then on a later date Bam got a contract with the community center and he started playing on the stage in back of the center."

NORIN RAD:"Did he do this during day time?"

BEAVER:"During the day and night."

NORIN RAD:"So whenever you heard beats blasting from downstairs you would know that Bambaataa had the B-Boys rocking?"

BEAVER:"Absolutely! Most of the time we all hung out in the circle." 

NORIN RAD:"What kind of circle was that? Was it some sort of of construction with fences?"

BEAVER:"No. It had tables and benches outside with about a foot wall that formed a circle around the community center in the middle of Bronx River."

NORIN RAD:"What is your recollection of the hierarchy within the Zulu Kings?"

BEAVER:"You had the older crew which was lead by Squirpy. Squirpy also lived in my building. Squirpy was Shaka and I was Little Shaka. I was the leader of the younger Zulu Kings. Brothers had to dance in front of me to be able to join the crew. They would come to my house to try out to become a member of the Zulu Kings. We would set something up. Sometimes we would take them to Bronx River Center and go into one of the rooms there and they would try out. They would have to dance in front of me or there were times when I might have somebody battle them, you know? And if they beat the person that they battled against they would become a Zulu King.  Some qualified and some didn't. If they made it they would get a Zulu King card that I would sign on the back of the card. They had to pay 10.00 dollars for the cards and that money went toward our Zulu King t-shirts... "

May 27th, 1977: Battle between The Zulu Kings and The Shaka Zulus at JHS 123. Note: The Little Zulu Kings (Beaver's Crew)  are also mentioned as attraction along with the Zulu Queens

NORIN RAD:"Did these shirts come in a specific color combination?"

BEAVER:"Yes..they were black and white T-Shirts with "Zulu Kings" on the front and the B-Boys name on the back." 


NORIN RAD:"So your B-Boy name was both Beaver and Little Shaka?"

BEAVER:"Yes, Sir!" 

NORIN RAD:"Did Squirpy give you that name or did you choose it out of respect for him?"

BEAVER:"Well, you see Afrika Bambaataa started calling me Little Shaka because I was a leader. Shaka...It means "Ruler of many"!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh, so as Squirpy was the leader of the older Zulu Kings and was therefore called Shaka you were called Little Shaka because you were the leader of the younger Zulu Kings?"

BEAVER:"Yes, Sir!" 

NORIN RAD:"What were you looking for when people came to you in order to try for the Little Zulu Kings? What were the requirements that they had to meet? Was it charisma? Outstanding moves?"

BEAVER:"I was definetely looking for somebody that had his own style and that their moves were crisp. Their moves wasn't sloppy but they were sharp! You know I was looking for finesse...for you being able to do something without messing up."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, now let me ask you this...from what I have been told Bronx River was very tough back in those days, right? So wasn't it a rather dangerous undertaking for B-Boys from outside to come to your apartment in order to try for the Little Zulu Kings? How would that go down?"

BEAVER:"Most of the time as we went to block parties in different areas and people knew my name and they knew what I was coming with. When I came there I came there with my crew and we was coming to make noise, you know? So with that being said a lot of times they would approach me in their town, in their area or in their project...they would approach me to ask me about  breakdancing or about certain moves or about how could they try out,  how could they join the Little Zulu Kings. I lived on the 12th floor at 1595 and a lot of times people would come to my house and how they would find out where I live....? They would probably find out from Bam or probably somebody in the neighbourhood might have said something if they were looking for me. The people in the neighborhood knew that they weren't looking for me to harm me....but that they were looking for me to become a Zulu King or try to even join the Zulu Nation."

NORIN RAD:"Okay, but in general Bronx River was a rather tough place, right? I have heard that once you crossed that infamous East 174th Street Bridge as a stranger you had to be prepared to be checked."

BEAVER:"Yes! Bronx River was a very tough neighbourhood...people were afraid to come to Bronx River. You had to get permission to come to Bronx River....the reason being is because not only did Bronx River develop a name for itself like the Zulu Nation, the Zulu Kings, the Shaka Zulus....before all of that Bronx River had a crew called The Black Spades which was a gang and they used to terrorize!"   

East 174th Street Bridge..Gate To Bronx River

NORIN RAD:"I heard you do have a brother by the name of Poo Poo who was also a B-Boy, is that correct?"

BEAVER:"Yeah, that's my brother..he did it not as much. He was like Kusa (another Zulu King B-Boy)...Kusa had a famous move called the Jelly Roll...my brother... he had a move called the Flop....and these moves were similar...the Jelly Roll was a flip and land on your back...the Flop was a back flip land on your stomach."   

Poo Poo (The Little Zulu Kings) Beaver's brother

NORIN RAD:"Is Poo Poo older or younger than you?"

BEAVER:"He is a year and a half older than I." 

NORIN RAD:"What were your signature moves back then?"

BEAVER:"Well, to be honest with you EVERY move that I did was MY signature move and I came up with my moves as I was dancing...I made up new moves when I was dancing....I didn't have a certain move...I mean I would do something like a spin on my back.....a twist with one of my legs behind my head....I was flexible (chuckles)...you know I did moves that were hard for anybody else to do."

NORIN RAD: "So was there any practicing at all when you did it back then?"

BEAVER:"Well, actually sometimes me and Poo Poo we would practise at our home but we would go out to the different block parties that were happening back then ....not just to those with Bam...in Bronxdale, Monroe and Castle Hill and that's where we would perform. They would form a circle and we would just dance! And most of the time we ended up having dance battles."

NORIN RAD:"So that means local B-Boys would step to you there and try to burn you?"

BEAVER:"Oh yes, and that's when they would get defeated! I was undefeated....but the majority of the time us...the Zulu Kings...we would all travel together and when we travelled it  might be Kusa...it might be Poo...Kusa and Poo Poo were best friends!cIt might be..there was a little brother by the name of Johnny that used to travel with us that was also a Zulu King...he was pretty decent with his moves and he might start it out..then there was another one named Stevie... another one named Anthony...we all danced, you know? They would start it out, you know...and if they couldn't handle the person that they was going against then I was taking over..."

Kusa (The Zulu Kings)

NORIN RAD:"So you were like the lethal weapon that came in when things were looking kinda bad for the Zulus?"  

BEAVER:"Yes! Yes! Nobody really wanted to challenge me because I was known all over..I was known for dancing and it got to a point were nobody wanted to challenge me but they wanted to challenge my crew."

NORIN RAD:"Let's talk about the toughest battle that you ever had back then...that one against Chris and Wendell you told me about..."

BEAVER:"Well, Wendell was from 169th Street & Webster Avenue but Chris lived in Lambert and he was one of the baddest B-Boys in Lambert. They did double team me....there was a block party at Bronx River....Afrika Bambaataa was playing behind the Bronx River Center and they informed me that Chris and Wendell were coming for me and as I said they double teamed me but I beat them. People had always wanted us to dance against each other but we never met up until that time and then they ended up becoming Zulu Kings."

NORIN RAD:"Did you ask them to join the Zulu Kings?"

BEAVER:"No, actually they asked me. They approached me and asked me what would it take to try out but being that I knew that they were good...I had heard about them over the years...so when they approached me of course I wanted them on my team because we were unstoppable together." 

NORIN RAD:"How did they actually try to beat you? What do you remember about that?"

BEAVER: (laughs) It's been a long time but I do remember....Wendell had a move where he would do like a flip in the air and kinda crossed his legs in a certain way......it was a nice move but of course I came back with something....I was always prepared because as I said I always had moves made up in my head that I would try as I was dancing."          



NORIN RAD:"Back in your era B-Boys had to match the music with their moves, right? It wasn't like today where it is pretty much normal to ignore the beat..."


BEAVER:"Let me tell you....IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE BEAT!!!!!  You wasn't dancing if you didn't dancing to the beat!!! It was all about the beat! When you heard that beat...your moves HAD to connect to the beat!"

NORIN RAD:"So you really didn't even have to think about the beat it just came natural?"

BEAVER: "Yes, it just came natural."

NORIN RAD:"So what would have happened if somebody back then had chosen to ignore the beat?"

BEAVER:"We would have looked at them as not being able to dance....like they were dancing off." 

NORIN RAD: "As for the parties at Bronx River Center and JHS 123 what kind of music do you recall being played there? Was it breakbeats all night?"

BEAVER: "Well at 123..that's the high school....there was some of everything. Bambaataa used to play slow music....when it was time to dance.. you know breakdance...he played the B-Boy music..the Hiphop (not Rap Music!)...There was a time when he played music so you could get your grind on.....But at Bronx River Center it was more of Hip Hop Beats (breakbeats)...you know there was always a lot of breakdancing going on there."

NORIN RAD:"Could you describe the feeling that you had when you heard those breakbeats at Bronx River?"

BEAVER:"Well, I'mma tell you...when they played those songs an adrenaline rush did come because when they played those songs you was ready to get your dance on!"


NORIN RAD:"How would you find out about those parties outside of Bronx River which you have just mentioned? I mean those parties certainly weren't advertised on television or the radio, right?"

BEAVER:"Right! Well, let me say this with Disco King Mario from Bronxdale...he had a crew  
 that used to go out and pass flyers out.."

NORIN RAD:"I see."

BEAVER:"Even when Afrika Bambaataa would perform...he would make up flyers and we (The Little Zulu Kings)  would go out and pass those flyers out. We would go to the other neighbourhoods and pass the flyers out! We would go to Castle Hill...we would ride our bikes or hop on the bus, or take a cab or do stuff like that. You know today they have Uber but back then we would call a taxi cab and go to different neighbourhoods. We also had what you'd call mopeds or ten speed bikes and so we would pass those flyers out and let people know that a block party is getting ready to start at such and such time and that's how we communicated with everybody  in different neighbourhoods! The word always got out!"

NORIN RAD:"So Afrika Bambaataa entrusted you with this kind of responsibility?"

BEAVER:"Oh yes, yes!!! We was all Zulu Kings and we were in the Zulu Nation as well. So we made sure that people knew about the block parties and what was going on in Bronx River. You know Bam didn't just do parties in Bronx River...he did block parties in Castle Hill, he had block parties in Monroe Projects, he did block parties in Soundview, Bronxdale, Lambert...out there on Webster Avenue. So he would travel to different places and do parties.....and you know when I say "block parties"...a lot of times what we did in other neighbourhoods... because Bronx River had the Circle and they had the Bronx River Center and in the back of that center was a stage...we had that set up.  Other neighbourhoods they did not always have that so when they weren't doing it in the parks they would cut off the street. They would put cones up and block the street....so they would have a big party on the street..the party would be three or four blocks....or five blocks! And a lot of times we would get permission from the police to block the street off so it was okay."

NORIN RAD:"And back then the DJs used to have big soundsystems so you would hear the beats from many blocks away, right?"

BEAVER:"Oh my gosh! Right, they had the monster equipment..the speakers were unbelievably huge and loud!"

NORIN RAD:"So would you help Bambaataa with carrying his record crates and his soundsytem?"

BEAVER:"We did that and he also had a crew that would carry the equipment, the speakers...they would put the speakers on big carts and roll them...four wheel carts...he also had it where he had made carts that connected to the speakers so they could roll..and then he had a crew that would carry all the crates (boxes full of records), you know?! They would carry the turntables, the amps, all that."

NORIN RAD:"Would Bambaataa also put a rope around his DJ equipment that you weren't allowed to cross unless you were down with him?"

BEAVER:"Afrika Bambaataa whenever he played in the back of Bronx River Center on the stage he would rope it off. He'd put a rope around the speakers, around the equipment...you couldn't come up to the stage, you know?  Even when he was playing out on the street he would rope off the table that the turntables sat on. Monk (another Zulu King B-Boy)...he passed away a couple of years ago...he did make sure that the stage was clear at Bronx River..little short guy.. Monk...we was kool."  

NORIN RAD:"Were there any Puerto Rican B-Boys among the Zulu Kings or Little Zulu Kings that you recall?"

BEAVER:"Yes! Yes! There was a Puerto Rican B-Boy by the name of Peter....Peter from Bronx River.... who also was a Zulu King. He didn't dance as much but he was pretty good! The last thing I heard was that he was killed."

NORIN RAD:"Oh okay, and did you ever battle against any Puerto Rican B-Boys? I'm asking you this question because you are held in regard by many Puerto Rican B-Boys from the Bronx and I would like to trace back how you actually influenced them."

BEAVER:"No!!! No!! They came on the scene later on.... like I after I got out of it."

NORIN RAD:"Oh, okay! But I have heard that you and a guy called Peanut once looked for a Puerto Rican B-Boy called Vinnie from the Sal Soul Crew at a swimming pool on Crotona Avenue back in 1975 and that you were defeated by him."

BEAVER:"That's been made up! I have never been defeated and I don't know who Vinnie is or who Peanut is and I have never danced against anybody by those names and again... most of those guys came in after...way after I stopped B-Boying in 1980.  What I see in that is  a lot of people want street credit. They feel if they mention my name and say they defeated me or taught me or what have you..they think that people will respect them and give them that credit that they think they deserve."  

NORIN RAD:"Thank you for clearing that up! Could you describe how B-Boys used to dress back in your era? You would wear Pro-Keds, Kangols, Sweatshirts with Old English Letters ironed on them , right? Stuff like that... "

BEAVER:(laughs)"Yes, Sir!!! With me..Yo, my crew we wore every color Kangol, you know Kangol hats....every color Puma....the suede Pumas...every color Adidas...Shelltoe Adidas we wore those in leather...every color Fletcher hat.....we wore British Walkers when we went to the clubs....we wore Playboys.......you know Izods... Lacoste Shirts and polo shirts...every color Super Pro-Keds.  The Super Pro-Keds had the red and blue stripe on the side...we wore every color of that...we wore every color of the 69er with the three stripes....then in the later years we started wearing every color Converse of the All Stars....Lees...Lee Jeans....you know Cortefiels, Cazal glasses..we started weaing all that."   

Pro-Keds 69ers with the three Stripes

NORIN RAD:"Would you say that dressing fly was a part of the B-Boy identity back then?"

BEAVER:"Oh, absolutely! You couldn't go and B-Boy if you wasn't fly!! (laughs) You couldn't do it! Whenever you travelled to go to another project to breakdance you gotta go fly because for one you are not just going there to breakdance...you are going there to check out the females all that..so you gotta look fly. So you go fly and you just so happen to be caught up in breakdancing. You wanna be out there breakdancing lookig good!"

NORIN RAD:"Which importance had Top Rocking to the B-Boys of your era? From what I have heard so far the whole dance started on top with legends like Trixie, Sasa etc.  and I would like to understand how it gradually turned into a floor centered dance form."

BEAVER:"Yeah, yeah..we all did Top Rock dancing but it always ended up, you know, down low on the floor  because there was always battles against B-Boys from different neighbourhoods. But everybody did Top Rock dancing...shaking and doing different moves on top but it always ended up down low, you know? Doing acrobatic moves that'll help you to win the battle."

NORIN RAD:"Was there like only one specific style of Top Rock dancing out when you did it back then? I'm asking this question because today many out here think that there merely one style existed namely that in which a B-Boy crosses his right leg over to the left side and then bounces back to his starting position in order to then cross his left leg over to the right side. Could you elaborate on that?" 

BEAVER:"There was all types of different styles! Everybody would have their own style of top rock dancing...What you've just about crossing the leg and then going back...everybody did that but everybody also had other moves that they would add to that. Like some would get into a person's face and make like a square and act like they had a bat and threw a ball and knock their head off...they would do different things like that and then they would also freeze."  

NORIN RAD:"Thank you! If one listens to those beats that were played back then at the jams it becomes quite obvious that they differed in terms of pace and mood...Like you had fast beats such as "Apache" that fill you with adrenaline but there were also joints like "Ain't No Half Stepping" by Heatwave that were a much slower and didn't come off as agressive....Would B-Boys  actually adjust their top rock dancing according to these different flavours of beats?"

BEAVER:"Absolutely! You had to adjust your pace to whatever the beat was.....if the beat was fast you would adjust your pace.....if it was slow you would do a slower pace. So for instance what you just called out...."Ain't No Half Stepping" that beat was kinda slow but the way Bambaataa used to mix that beat....he used to mix it sometimes with "Apache", you know? So it was very exciting because they would take the slower beat and blend them in with the faster beat! That made you wanna go off even harder!"  

NORIN RAD:"Okay, and what kind of floormoves and footwork shuffles were you doing exactly?"

BEAVER:"Again it goes back to...you know, I had the sweep  as far as a floor move. The front sweep and the back sweep. Flips, you know I twisted my body...I mean I was doing some of everything on the floor.Spinning on my back, spinning on my head..I was doing those before it got popular."

NORIN RAD:"I see....and you were the one that actually took the front sweep that the older Zulu Kings would also do and then developed the back sweep out of it, right? And you were the only one capable of doing it."

BEAVER:"Yes! I not only did with one foot backwards but I would do it with both feet backwards  and nobody could do that! When were doing the front sweep I would also do the front sweep with both feet and then reverse it and nobody could master that!" 

                              Interview with DJ Smokey (The Master Plan Bunch) 


                     conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders Crew / Germany)

                                                     

                                                                

DJ Smokey (The Master Plan Bunch)

NORIN RAD:"What made you pick up that name Smokey?"

DJ SMOKEY:"I was running track in Taft High School and I could run really fast. When I ran the dust would be kicking up from my sneakers. They would say, "What do we got here? You're smoking!" "Hey, Smokey!" See! So the name kept sticking. I kept the nickname when I was DJing..it said DJ Smokey! That's how the name came about..DJ Smokey! As time went on I dropped the Y and it was DJ Smoke. People just kept calling me DJ Smokey. Flash and them would call me DJ Smokey. Kool Herc called me DJ Smokey."

NORIN RAD: "When did you form your dance crew? The Smoke-A-Trons? Was that around 1974/75?"

DJ SMOKEY: "No. That was around 1972."

NORIN RAD: "From your recollection how did Breaking as a dance come about? What are its roots?"

DJ SMOKEY: " Okay, in 1969 the dance at these 25 Cent parties in the basements and in the clubs started to change, it was more of a expression vibe. Like this song that came out in 1970 "Express Yourself!" You see it was more of a rush dance, a anger dance. "Say It Loud I'm Black And I'm Proud" ..they were like "Ahhhh, I'm angry!" A anger dance!! Like "I'm tired of all this shit....who you're calling nigger?" and it was also like "I'm from this block you're from that block!" You know what I'm saying? Two guys would go at each other....

NORIN RAD " Would they go down to the floor?"

DJ SMOKEY "No, they wouldn't go down on the floor. Absolutely not. They would express themselves with each other. One would stand in front of another and they would go like "BAMM!"" I mean they would do moves with their arms, like hitting each other and kicking at the same time...all to the music. But no touching!! Guys were like showing what they were gonna do to each other...That's where this breaking dance really came from.. and remember this was before there were two turntables involved.

NORIN RAD: "Now as for that name Smoke-A-Trons how did that come about?

DJ SMOKEY: "The Smoke-A-Trons were my dancers, the ones that I picked.Sister Boo, Johnny Kool, James Bond, Crazy Eddie, the Yellow Banana....all my dancers...when people would come to our block and think that they could dance my dancers would smoke the hell out of them. That's why I called them The Smoke-A-Trons."

NORIN RAD:"Where was Sister Boo from? The 9?"

DJ SMOKEY: " No, she wasn't from the 9. I think she was from Jerome Avenue. She was real good and beautiful. I'll send you some pictures of her. She is dead now, she died from AIDS. The Yellow Banana is still around. Her real name is Vivien. She used to go to Kool Hercs parties, too."

NORIN RAD: "So the Smoke-A-Tron B-Boys and B-Girls were Sista Boo, Johnny Kool, James Bond, Crazy Eddie.."

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes, but I had more. there were bout 20 of them."

NORIN RAD: "Could you name them please?"

DJ SMOKEY: "El Dorado Mike."

NORIN RAD: "El Dorado Mike was down with you, too? I have heard a lot about him...."

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah, he was one my B-Boys. The Nigger Twins would come to my parties, too. You can ask them about me, you can ask them about DJ Smokey...Then I had Bo Bo, he was from the 9. Here's another one: The Calgonite Kid. He was so dirty that they called him the Calgonite Kid. Then there was Barbara, Beavey, Born, Knowledge...They are in heaven now."

NORIN RAD: "What about Ron, Sleepy and  Kaseem? I heard Pow Wow from the Zulu Kings mention them as great B-Boys."'

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, yes they were all Smoke-A-Trons. Sleepy was very good."

NORIN RAD:"What were your stomping grounds in terms of indoor as well as outdoor party spots around the early to mid 1970 when The Smoke-A-Trons were with you?" 

DJ SMOKEY:"The Cave! '74! It was on Webster Avenue....in the Webster Avenue Projects. It was on Webster Avenue & 167th street. We called it The Cave."

NORIN RAD:"Damn! Melle Mel mentioned that the first B-Boy party he ever witnessed took place at The Cave with you playing the music....Was that a club?" 

DJ SMOKEY:"It was a community center. One of the buildings had a big community center and it was in that center!"

NORIN RAD:"I heard  that you were also giving parties at a spot called Over The Dover (I read that in an interview with Pow Wow from the Zulu Kings / Soul Sonic Force)....What kind of spot was that?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Okay, The Dover was a movie theatre that was closed. On the top of The Dover was a club that Lucky got for us. We called it Over The Dover.....it was kinda raggedy so we started working on it.....we had to build it up and clean it.  The more we built it up the more people came and before we got the amps stolen from us we had it packed on the regular. At first it was 100 people, then it was 200 people.....then 1000.....we started to make so much money out of it. The Smoke-A-Trons and Luke- A-Trons were there....but then unfortunately we got robbed....."

NORIN RAD:" From what I've heard you also used to do parties at your apartment on Grant Avenue where B-Boys got down at heavily..."

DJ SMOKEY:" Yes!! All day long!!!  All day long!!! My apartment was on 169th street & Grant Avenue...5D!!! On the fifth floor....We played music 24/7 !! That's where my Smoke-A-Trons..they would come in there daily, hang out and dance. We would also do block parties on Grant Avenue in the summer time."

NORIN RAD: "But how would all the these B-Boys and B-Girls that later ran with the Smoke-A-Trons and the Luke -A-Trons as well as those who challenged them know about your parties i on Grant Avenue?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Because of the cards! You know what an index card is, right? Before flyers we passed out little index cards. We would give'em to people to take them to school. Pass them out! You know on the DL, on the down low. Like you had a cheerleader or a football player in school....."Here's a card. This is where the party is going to be at!" "Smokey is giving a party!" Once it started spreading around it got big! That's when Flash started coming around my house. They ain't telling. That's why Lucky and them are being mad."

NORIN RAD: "What was Lucky's function within the Master Plan Bunch?"

DJ SMOKEY: "He was like the Godfather! You know he was a gangster. He was at the door. He takes care of the food! He takes care of the product, you know what I'm talking about? He took care of the bills. He was like the overseer, he is older than us. He took care of the muscle. Whenever we needed it, he had the muscle. He kept the money going. And also he is a gambler...he is a dice man. He took care of the house we played the dice. He was like Bumpy Johnson."  

NORIN RAD:"Where did you meet Lucky for the first time?"

DJ SMOKEY:"I met him at the Factory West in Harlem."


                                                  

Lucky (The Master Plan Bunch)

NORIN RAD:"So you served food and drinks at your parties on Grant Avenue?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, hot dogs, hamburgers, sodas, beer, Old English 800...things like that. Anything you needed..loose joints. I don't really wanna talk about that on the phone though (laughs)!" 

NORIN RAD:"Now who exactly were the Luke-A-Trons?"

DJ SMOKEY:"The Luke-A-Trons were basically Lucky's dancers, they were mostly girls."

NORIN RAD:"Could you name some of the B-Girls that ran with the Luke-A-Trons?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Sister Boo! She was the number one! (Sister Boo shared membership of both the Smoke-A-Trons and the Luke-A-Trons) Angie Du Bose was a Luke-A-Tron...Barbara was a Luke-A-Tron....Yellow Banana was a Luke-A-Tron....Beverly Burton was a Luke-A-Tron....Sheila was a Luke-A-Tron...It was about 30 of them. It was a whole team of them. Females! Webster Avenue Crew was Luke-A-Trons and some of them were Spanish and they were Luke-A-Trons!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh so there were Puerto Rican B-Girls among the Luke-A-Trons?"

DJ SMOKEY:" Yes, we called them Maniquas. They was Luke-A-Trons, yes! They used to Hustle and Breakdance! I'm serious! Then we had Savage Nomads (notorious street gang from the Bronx)...girls....they were bad. They'd do the Hustle...all of them. When they came to the party... Oh my God! They were beautiful girls!"

NORIN RAD:"Oh, so I guess the Luke-A-Trons would attract a lot of people to come to your parties, right?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Thank you! That's what started it off.  Over The Dover....I got pictures of this stuff I wanna show you.  Beautiful girls!! Let me tell you something.... I was mad because the Yellow Banana didn't like me and I wanted to rap to her but she would say, "You got too many girlfriends you better get out of my face! (laughs) I'm serious! Sister Boo, too! She never rapped to me. "

NORIN RAD:"And all the Smoke-A-Trons and Luke-A-Trons would hang out at your house and also practise there during daytime, right?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Night time, too. Some of them they would not leave..they would stay for two or three days! They would sleep on the floor  and then just get up.. get something to eat..take a shower...change up.... and enjoy themselves. There was no raping nothing like that because guys knew we would beat the shit out of them.."

NORIN RAD:"So it was like a family thing?"

DJ SMOKEY:"It was a family, yes! We took care of them. They knew nobody would hurt them. They felt comfortable. Lucky would let nobody hurt them anyway."

NORIN RAD:"What about their opponents? Would they challenge the Smoke-A-Trons and Luke-A-Trons at your apartment?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah..when other people came from different neighbourhoods they had to come through them....dancing. They (the other B-Boys & B-Girls)  would lose a lot of times! Sometimes they would win...but most of the times they lost. 155th Street Crew...they lost. The Polo Grounds Crew lost....University Avenue Crew they lost. They would get their ass handed to them because the Smoke-A-Trons was bad!! James Bond, Bobo and them was bad. They knew their style! Eldorado Mike? Come on...But there were a lot of good dancers back then... Ni**er Twins! They were bad!  Kool Herc's  team was bad, too! Clark Kent!!! They were good, I'm not lying. Flash's dance team was bad..Melle Mel and them could dance....they would all dance before they got into their shit (starting with MCing)." 

NORIN RAD:"From what I've heard so far talking to greats such as Trixie, Sasa and Clark Kent the early Breaking (1972-1974) was characterized by a lot of routines that the dancers would do while they were rocking on top. Would the Smoke-A-Trons also have these kind of routines and if so could you describe some them?"

Babe Ruth

DJ SMOKEY:"It was different back then...first of all they were dancing on real concrete! It wasn't no goddamn mats or cardboard on the ground...they were dancing on real concrete! They wasn't having that...no! As far as the routines... they were performers! You had to do something like a show. You had to do skits..they were doing skits before..It wasn't all that throwing yourself on the floor at once.....They (the Smoke-A-Trons) would do something like Charlie Chaplin...they would do Babe Ruth....the Frankenstein....the Spinning Top......there were so many different styles that they would do dancing. I still know these skits! You would do the Robot! I would tell them what styles they should do.... I mean I wasn't a good dancer myself but I would give them advice and tell 'em, "Do it this way!  Do the Spider or do The Drunken Monkey! Like in those Kung-Fu movies that we used to watch..."Do the Crane!" It was different skits that you would do breakdancing.....going crazy! I would break my Smoke-A-Trons down! "Do the Fallen Angel! " I had mirrors in my apartment and so they would practise all day. I would watch them and tell them, "Don't do it like him or her....do it your way!" I would let them know.....I got codes of what I wanted them to do like a coach!"  

NORIN RAD:"Alright! And so the name of your whole crew (DJs, dancers, promoters) was TMB.....The Masterplan Bunch, right?"
 

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes! We are Masters at what we do.......we Plan what we do and we travel as a bunch. TMB!"  
 
NORIN RAD:"What did your equipment consist of back then? Like which amps, speakers and turntables did you have ? Kids nowadays have no idea of what it took back in your era to do parties as a DJ."  

DJ SMOKEY:"Okay, I'mma say it this way. It was Peavey's. Peavey columns... Everything was mostly Peaveys. I started out with different kind of stuff. In the beginning it was Kenwoods then it branched out to Peaveys. Some Jamaicans they were giving us other stuff and we started building speakers. That's where Ahmad Shabazz came in and then other people started coming in, you know what I'm saying? We built the woofers..we built the sub range, the mid range..we built some of the tweeters, the horns...I got carpetenters who built those cabinets. At the peak of it...I'd say around '76....aaah, 76' we was really at our peak then. In '77 somebody robbed us and took the Peavey amps and that kinda like threw me off. "

NORIN RAD:"Oh shit!!! Where did that happen?"

DJ SMOKEY:"It was on 169th street & Grant Avenue (Smokey's apartment)......somebody had left the door open and the stick up kids came up and took the amps...That kinda hurt me!  They took the amps..they couldn't carry the speakers because they were so big....they just took the amps. (gets excited)  It was a set up!!! At gunpoint!!!"

NORIN RAD: "So it was a rather serious thing back then to be a DJ 'cause cats would try to get at you and snatch your equipment away?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yeah! They could never rob our parties because we had too much security. We would never have a fight at our block parties because we had too much security. They tried to rob us at parties but the security was so tight before they could get next to us the security already bagged them. One party at Burger King's...my mother was taking money at the door..this guy walks in with a shotgun pointing it at my mother...seconds...seconds..we snatched the shotgun..beat him up and took him around the block. His boy..he had a gun..he ran off cause our security was soo tight.
That's how we trained our security.....inside the party and outside the party."

NORIN RAD:"How deep was your breakbeat arsenal at your peak in '76 and '77? Were you known for having rare beats?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Yes, I had some very rare beats. I had four crates..beats, just beats in it....two crates with other music. So I had like six crates...."

NORIN RAD:"Nowadays the younger DJs are not really familiar with what it took back then to become a DJ....Like building up a Soundsystem, buying two copies of the same record to extend the break..."

DJ SMOKEY:"I had six copies! Sometimes when we played outside...the records...the sun would warp them or they would get scratched up by the way that we was playing them and I used to have pennies and dimes on my needles and so sometimes the needle would break......we would cut the records so much that the grooves would get messed up....sometimes even the headphones would get messed up...So I had multiple copies of each record. "

NORIN RAD:"Where would you buy your records at?"

DJ SMOKEY:"There was a spot called Downstairs Music, Crazy Eddie....I would go as far as Brooklyn to get the records I needed....."

NORIN RAD:"What were your five favourite breakbeats?"

DJ SMOKEY:""It's Just Begun", "Apache", "Bongo Rock", "Open Sesame" by Kool & The Gang...there was version that had a nice beat on it.....sings, "Groove With The Jeannie"

NORIN RAD:"Who were your DJ partners back then? That ran with your crew?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Jerry D! Rob The Gold! There were also a lot of other DJs that played with me like Flash, Lovebug Starski and Mean Gene (from the legendary L-Brothers)."

DJ Rob The Gold (The Master Plan Bunch)

DJ Jerry Dee (The Master Plan Bunch)

NORIN RAD: "I don't mean to upset you but what was your relationship with Kool DJ Herc back then in the early to  mid 1970ies?"

DJ SMOKEY: "I was his nemesis!"

NORIN RAD: "Ok, so you were rivals! Did you ever go  against each other in a battle with your soundsystems?"

DJ SMOKEY: "Yes, we did . He definetely had the equipment but skillwise I was much better than him and I'm still better today. He did something very slick to me at the PAL back then. He had invited me there to do a battle of the DJs and he had all his equipment there, massive equipment, you know what I'm saying? Half an hour before the PAL closed I finally got on using some of my equipment but I only had two speakers with me, two Peavey columns. So I tried to tear his ass up with what I had. I was waiting for Grandmaster Flash to bring the rest of my equipment but by the time he got there the PAL already closed. So Herc basically drowned me out because he had all his speakers there. Everybody said he won, he did not win..."

NORIN RAD: "Where was that PAL located at?"

DJ SMOKEY:" On Webster Avenue in the Bronx."

NORIN RAD: "Do you recall in which year that battle took place?"

DJ SMOKEY:"Oh, I'm not sure that was such a long time ago....but I think it was in 1976. Definetely before I joined the military in 1978."