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| Willie Wil (Rockwell Association) |
conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders / Germany)
SIR NORIN RAD:"Where in the Bronx did you live at when you got involved with B-Boying?"
WILLIE WILL:"182nd Street & Belmont Avenue...yeah, that's where I started. When I first picked it up I was hanging out with my boy Pops ( God bless his Soul). We had a friend named Rickie...he was a white boy actually..I think he was half-white and half-spanish.. and he had learnt it from a guy named Chopper from the Zulu Nation. He was teaching Rickie a move or two and then he showed us after we had bumped into him...so every time we ran into Chopper he would show us a couple of moves as he was walking by. You know, he would stop and he would show us some basic footwork and then from there we just kept it going! From there we invented our own shit. Pops and me we were taught at the same time 'cause we were best friends. We used to hang out...before we went to school we would go to his house and clean our Super Pro-Keds, you know what I mean? With a toothbrush, make sure they're tight! And then we would go to school."
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| Pops (Rockwell Association) - Willie Wil's first B-Boy partner |
SIR NORIN RAD:"So how did you form your crew Rockwell Association after that?"
WILLIE WIL:"Me, Tito, Macho, the Rockwells...the ones that became Rockwell Association..we all met through flying pigeons and shit like that. So we used to hang out..then we showed them what we had learnt.....the moves that Chopper had taught us. There were others that already knew about it from somewhere else."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you say that you and Pops were the nucleus of Rockwell Association? The ones from which that whole crew originated?"
WILLIE WIL:"The nucleus of Rockwell Association was Macho and Tito. They're the ones who were the leaders with ideas of making our own B-Boy crew with our own DJs that would throw jams in the school yards of 129, 118, Belmont Playground St. Martin's, 57 school yard..also house party's... we followed their lead. 1976 that's when we first started after we had left the RCA Freak Masters. That's when we said that we would become Rockwell, not when we came out. We became Rockwell Association in the winter of 1976. We didn't come out with shirts and all that stuff till 1977 because not everybody had money to buy shirts at that time, not even me! We were still living with our moms. Imagine! In '77 when everybody had their shirts, you know saved up money, saved up money.....when the summer of 1977 came that's when we came out. Around 15, 20 of us...even the girls had shirts."
WILLIE WIL:"We started off with, I think it was navy blue and white...with white letters. The shirt was navy blue and the letters was white. Then one year we went to a different color...black..and after that it was every man for himself. Whoever wanted to buy a shirt with whatever color you want ...especially the main cats, you know what I mean? Ramon, Dee, myself, Tito, Hector...like that. Everybody was buying their own shit."
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| Rockwell Association Crew Colors |
SIR NORIN RAD:"Were the RCA Freak Masters a B-Boy crew?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yes, it started out like a B-Boy crew, as it grew things changed to more like a street gang that's when we decided to quit and make Rockwell."
SIR NORIN RAD:"So was Rickie also an original member of the Rockwell Association?"
WILLIE WIL:"No! Actually, he wasn't! He was just like one of our friends. Eventually he moved out and we just kept on. He moved away. Remember we were like 11, 12 years old when we started B-Boying."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Then who were the hardcore members of Rockwell Association?"
WILLIE WIL:"Me, Ramon, Hector, Dee, Carlos....those were the main cats...our best B-Boys....Macho, Tito...Pops....he was part of us and then he was like, "Yeah, Yeah!" But he wasn't really too deep into that B-Boy stuff. He let us do it but we started it together. Later on we added Rubberband. We also had one B-Girl that wa in our crew for a little while, her name was Mama. She got down like us...she did all the footwork."
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| Ramon (Rockwell Association) |
SIR NORIN RAD:"Macho started his own DJ Crew with Tito later on, right?"
WILLIE WIL:"The Rockwell Brothers! Yeah, him and Tito made the Rockwell Brothers after we had gotten out of Breaking. You know, after we got too old......to us it was already dead at a certain point. We stopped but Rock Steady kept going and took it to another level."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Where would the Rockwell Brothers DJ at?"
WILLIE WIL:"Mostly at little jams and house parties. They DJed at 118 school yard and 129 park."
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| Tito (DJ CKT) and Macho (DJ Macho Rock): The Rockwell Brothers |
SIR NORIN RAD:"Were Macho and Tito also B-Boys?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, we used to send them out first to trick other crews into thinking that was the best we had! (laughs) They were the worst ones! They couldn't B-Boy for shit! (laughs heavily) They wanted to B-Boy so bad and they couldn't get it."
SIR NORIN RAD:"What lead to that legendary battle at St. Martin of Tours in 1979 in which you went against Spy and how did that battle go down?"
WILLIE WIL:" If there was a battle back then they would usually talk all that shit like, "We'll battle you! This and that!" You know what I mean?" Like we was gonna fight. Like we was gonna rumble. And we would say, "Alright! So we threw a jam and you come and battle us!" Cause we had the DJs and the equipment, too. That's what made us stick out 'cause we had DJ equipment, real DJ equipment. Not no little house speakers I'm talking about the big speakers and all that good stuff. So we had the place (St. Martin of Tours), we had the equipment and we had the B-Boys. So we told them to bring it. And that's how it started."
SIR NORIN RAD:"So you had run into B-Boys of other crews and then all that trash talking started like, "We gonna serve you!"?
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, yeah it was like that! We used to go to anywhere where we knew that there were B-Boys, that there was a jam. Wherever there were people B-Boying we would be there, too."
SIR NORIN RAD:"What were some the other spots besides Belmont Park where Rockwell Association would rock at?"
WILLIE WIL:"Moms & Pops!! If they don't go to the fucking Hiphop museum...you know what I mean? 'Cause these were people that used to throw real underground jams! That was a moving underground jam. One minute it was in a burnt out building over here, the next minute it was in a basement, the next minute it was another abandoned building that ran electricity from the light pole to the equipment. Pay a dollar and go in! That's where we used to B-Boy, too. There were battles in there..the circles were so small cause everybody wanted to see what the hell we were doing....it was so close that if you made a sweep you would kick somebody! And we had to be like, "Yo, back up! Back up! Man, we can't move! How are we supposed to B-Boy if we can't move? "
SIR NORIN RAD:"Why was it called Moms & Pops?"
WILLIE WIL:"It was a husband and his wife and they had their kids who were of our age. They liked the music.....they used to run it like a club. That crew TDK..The Disco Kids.....they were part of Mom's & Pop's if I'm right."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Where were their party spots located at?"
WILLIE WIL:"It was all over! Like a moving club! One month it was inside a basement....they would say,"Yo, Moms & Pops moved over there to the building across the street from Tremont Park!" It was moving. One winter it would be in a certain spot, the next winter it would be somewhere else. Never in the same place! Now we used to do it, too! Going to abandoned buildings or private houses and pull up the windows and run electricity from the street. Go to work. "Yo, we're throwing a jam! We're throwing a jam!" We used to come like that! People heard about these jams through word of mouth and if we were throwing a major jam they would know about the jams through flyers."
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| Moms & Pops: legendary underground jam promoters |
SIR NORIN RAD:"What was the atmosphere like at these underground parties in the basements and apartments of these abandoned buildings?"
WILLIE WIL:"Just imagine going into an apartment...it was an apartment basically.....twenty, thirty 30 people in there.....all just standing around at first, you know drinking, smoking, checking out the atmosphere. It was dark, you had your black lights on, you had your red lights.There was mad smoke in there. Underground, dude!! Underground!"
SIR NORIN RAD:"And I guess people were strapped (carried guns), too?"
WILLIE WIL:"Hell yeah! At first we didn't start off like that but then after a while we started getting strapped. But mostly when we walked around strapped was Friday, Saturday when we were coming to hang out. Just us...in the park and we'd have our beers and smoke. If we wasn't battling or something like that....That was our hang out....Belmont Park. So we used to come at night time when everybody came out strapped."
SIR NORIN RAD:"So would you consider that battle against Spy the highlight of your B-Boy career?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, I think so. Most of the battles that we had were in the streets away from our block. When we used to go to jams that's how they got to know us like, "Yo, these ni***s got a crew over here with B-Boys!" So but that one against Spy and them was on our home turf. That was in our place. We ran that shit. We ran Belmont Park, too at a time."
SIR NORIN RAD:"St. Martin of Tours was a catholic church though, right?"
WILLIE WIL:"That was the gymnasium of the church. Father Flynn, Father Ed..at that time it was Father Ed and Jacob."
SIR NORIN RAD:"So they were catholic priests?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, father Flynn and he was real famous. He used to walk around at 3 o'clock in the morning telling us, you know, "Be nice! Don't fight! Go to school! Stay away from drugs!" Fearless! He was real fearless. Nobody messed around with that man."
SIR NORIN RAD:"And they would allow you to throw jams in that church's gymnasium?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, you know why? Cause they used to have that gymnasium over there. So what they used to do was they would put ping-pong tables in there, throw out basketballs and people used to come and play in the gym. Instead of being in the street doing bad things we would be in the gym. Boxing, gymnastics.. I used to do a couple of gymnastics in there. We used to play ping pong, basketball. You know, stuff like that! It was like a community thing to keep us off the street and from there we got to the point where the fathers trusted us so much and the one who ran everything..Jacob....they used to give us the keys. We used to stay there over night and practice over there!"
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| St. Martin of Tours |
SIR NORIN RAD:"Okay, now which other crews were present at that legendary battle besides Rockwell Association?"
WILLIE WIL:"It was us. Spy and his crew (the Crazy Commanders)....but it wasn't really crews, it was just them guys representing. Cause it was more than just one crew on their side...Starchild La Rock was in there, The Disco Kids (TDK) were in there........they were battling against us, too. It's like they ganged up on us. They all wanted a piece of us, trying to shut us up. (laughs)"
SIR NORIN RAD:"But they weren't succesful..."
WILLIE WIL:"No, we won the battle right there. We took out all of them with that one battle. Nobody can say no different... that we'd bought the judges, that we knew them, that we gave them money...'cause that's what they gonna say. That the trophy already had our name on it..all that crap. It was a trophy that the fathers already had in the back from baseball or from football from old times. That's what they gave us."
SIR NORIN RAD:"How did that duel between you and Spy wich took place during that battle come about?"
WILLIE WIL:" At first we threw Macho and Tito around. (laughs) We put them first, then we started going one on one like that until the end when they said, "Alright, now we gonna do the two best out of the two crews and that was me and Spy. See I don't know why they passed that honour to me because I thought Dee was better than me but they said,"Nah, you go, Wil! You're the man! And I was practicing that move that I finished him with for a minute, bro. I was practicing before we even got to that jam because I knew that the battle was coming up..we was getting ready for it..so I was practicing for new moves...some shit nobody saw before."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Before the Puerto Ricans got into Breaking they had that other style of dancing...."
WILLIE WIL:"The Uprocking! Yeah, it was Uprocking at that time! There was no Electric Boogie. Nobody was really doing the Electric Boogie at that time. It was Uprocking, that was some underground shit!"
SIR NORIN RAD:"Were you Uprocking as well before you picked up Breaking?"
WILLIE WILL:"Nah, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't get it. I couldn't do the Hustle neither! It wasn't in me. B-Boying stuck because I was athletic and I was doing gymnastics, everything so.."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Could you describe how a B-Boy of your era dressed?"
WILLIE WIL:"The B-Boy clothes for us was the sweatpants with the sweatshirts. I used to rock the suede Pumas.....the black ones with the white stripe or the white ones with the black stripe and used to match them with the black suit with the white "Rockwell Association" letters on the back or the opposite......all white suit with black letters. Adidas suits, Godfather hats...stuff like that. Run D.M.C. style long before there was Run D.M.C. I was a Kangol guy myself.Tito and Macho preferred the Godfather hats because they were the president and the vice-president. When I was getting jiggy to go out somewhere then I would rock a Godfather hat...put on the full leather trenchcoat."
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| Carlos (Rockwell Association) rocking a Godfather Hat |
SIR NORIN RAD:"What were your top 3 breakbeats to get down to?"
WILLIE WIL:"Oh, "Apache", "It's Just Begun" and "Bongo Rock". There's plenty more but these were my three top choices because with "Bongo Rock" you had to be fast and at that time I was fast....without EVER missing a beat. "It's Just Begun" that's the hype one."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Alright and what were some of your signature moves back then?"
WILLIE WIL:"I don't even know what the names of them were. I never named them....I just know I did them. I never named my moves! I don't know how that started (laughs). Footwork was the main thing. When we first started..me and Pops...it was all footwork. It was no freezes, no spinning, none of that. The freezes came after."
SIR NORIN RAD:"So what Chopper showed you and Pops was basically footwork shuffles?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, that's what he showed us! He showed us footwork! And from there we started doing our own moves. So that's why I tell you that I can't really name any move. I mean I had signature moves! They were dangerous even that if you didn't land right you would break your leg or your arm. I remember we had one that was called the Sweep. On the floor..you know how they do the Sweep now on the floor...well, I used to do that in the air! I'd run real fast and jump as high as I could and sweep in the air, then I would come down and do a backspin and then from there just keep going. And it had to be one fluid move if not you'd get hurt. I beat Spy with a Sweep into a Headspin. That's what I won with cause the Headspin wasn't really out at that time. I mean I had never seen nobody doing it."
SIR NORIN RAD:"How often did you spin on your head?"
WILLIE WIL:"It was two spins, it was only two full spins and I didn't land on my stomach or anything like that. I landed on my back with my legs bent like that and with my hands holding my balls, you know what I mean? That was a burn back then! And everybody went wild, kid!! And when Spy tried to do something he...I don't know what the fuck happened...he tripped and shit and fucked up...and you know in those days it was smooth! If you fucked up, you know, it was like, "Oh, he fucked up!" Everybody saw that! So that's the way it went down! That's how I won!"
SIR NORIN RAD:"But everything you did matched the beat, right?"
WILLIE WIL:"Of course! It had to be on beat with the record when you B-Boyed, you know what I mean?! It wasn't just go off and B-Boy!"
SIR NORIN RAD:"How did you and the rest of the Rockwell Association practice? Did you practice your moves on cardboard?"
WILLIE WIL:"No, we practiced on the concrete. That's why we moved into the hallways...like we had a big hallway in 735 right there on a 182nd. It was a big hallway, bro. We used to bring the box in there and we used to play music and B-Boy there, you know? It was less scratching than concrete because I did a headspin on the concrete, bro, and believe me that was not funny! I think I'm still missing some hair from that part there when I did the headspin."
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| The hallway of 735: Pratice spot of the Rockwell Association |
SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you continue to dance after that famous battle against Spy at St. Martin's in 1978 or did you stop after that?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, we kept on for a little while but then we needed money 'cause we were getting older. So we stopped altogether. We were getting jobs and stuff like that."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you also hang out with members of other B-Boy crews?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, we used to hang out with other crews like The Mexicans. A lot of people don't remember that crew. They were from University Ave or some shit like that. I didn't know them individually. I just knew them from going to one of their blocks and hanging out with them, drinking beer, talking shit, lighting up, doing a couple of moves..."
SIR NORIN RAD:"So you would exchange concepts of moves with other B-Boys?"
WILLIE WIL:"Yeah, we used to breakdance together, they would show us stuff and we would show them. You know at that time everybody was biting. Nobody can front! Nobody can front.! It's not like I invented every move I ever did. If I saw a move that I liked.......like Crazy Legs said...if he saw a move that he liked he did that and flipped it his way....he put something into it that made it look a little bit different. Now Rock Steady and them I used to hang out with a lot. They was a crew to be reckoned with! That's when we was already leaving the B-Boying and they was just starting. Those guys they were from 183rd and that's where I used to hang out. I used to hang out with Kuriaki and Flex and them.....and Buck 4...and Crazy Legs. Crazy Legs.. ..when he came to hang out with us when we was younger he tried to be in our crew but we looked at him..we were already older than him...we told him, "Nah man, you're too young you can't hang out with us!" We already had people that wanted to fight, looking for trouble. So we didn't want him to be involved in that stuff. You know, Puppy hung out with us. I call him Puppy. He was Crazy Leg's cousin."
SIR NORIN RAD:"Oh, you mean Lenny Len!"
WILLIE WIL:"Lenny Len. Yeah, he used to hang out with us all the time. That was my man and Mongo Rock was my man, too. TBB was cool with us, we never had no problems. They were from right there behind Southern Boulevard by Bronx Zoo. Or Trac 2 and them. Trac flew birds, too....besides the B-Boying that's how we got to know each other personally. Flying pigeons was a big thing back then."
SIR NORIN RAD:"What would you do with these pigeons? You kept them in coops on the roof of your building, right?"
WILLIE WIL:"Raise them, fly them, trade them, sell them. It was like a hobby."
SIR NORIN RAD:"How did you and the other members of Rockwell go to these other crews blocks back then? Would you take a cab or a bus?"
WILLIE WIL:"Mostly we would go by foot. When we used to go to other places it wasn't just three people....it was about twenty or thirty of us. A crew!"
SIR NORIN RAD:"Like in that movie "The Warriors"?
WILLIE WIL:"(laughs) Something like that. The B-Boy crews were like that. Basically, everybody had their own block, like their own areas. But there was no rumbling like gangs over turf and shit. Let's say if I Willie Wil from Rockwell walked through where TBB was at with my crew shirt on they ain't gonna be like,"Yo, you can't be walking around here with your shit!" Like some outlaw gangs used to do back in the days or the Italians, bro! I couldn't even go through 187th without the Italians trying to kill me. I was right there on the edge. 182nd & Belmont is right before Little Italy. We had to stay clear off that. They were racists, they didn't want no Puerto Ricans or Blacks in that area. It was definetely rough times back then. Abandoned buildings everywhere. We used to play Manhunt in the abandoned buildings, not worrying about whether the floors would cave. Jumping from roof to roof like monkeys. If you fell it was all over. That actually helped in the B-Boy thing cause that's strengthened me up. That and gymnastics."