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| DJ Kool Joe (The M&M Crew) |
NORIN RAD:"Where in the Bronx did you grow up at?"
DJ KOOL JOE:" I grew up in the South Bronx...the Tremont area...Eastside.. Tremont area...West Farms area."
NORIN RAD:"And the specific name of that place where you lived at was Lambert Houses, right?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes! Yes! The Lambert Houses...We had Lambert Houses and then we also had Bronx River which was another Hiphop location..ummh...maybe..walking distance probably 15 minutes...15-20 minutes...Southern Boulevard..there we had another location where we would have Hiphop parties."
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| Lambert Houses |
NORIN RAD:"Alright, now what was your first encounter with B-Boying?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh man! Well, my brother....my big brother...he used to hang out with a guy named Andre....he was called One Eyed Andre and another guy named Shawn and another guy named Ray....and they used to go to Kool Herc's parties and then they used to come home. They used to B-Boy in front of a mirror...before going to a Kool Herc party and I used to sit in the room and watch them and then I began B-Boy and I got me a little B-Boy Crew..we were called Kool Joe & The Oreos....We had evolved over into another style of Breaking..My brother and them... when they were B-Boying they wouldn't hit the floor back then."
NORIN RAD:"They were mainly Top Rocking, right?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Right! Right! It was Freestyle Top Rock....and then it evolved and that's when I got involved in it...that's when they started hitting the floor and doing the spins and whatnot.."
NORIN RAD:"And so your crew was named after those Oreo cookies?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Yeah! Kool Joe and The Oreos! (laughs)"
NORIN RAD: "Okay, and who were the members of The Oreos?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"We had Hutch...DJ Scooter...well, he became DJ Scooter...these guys were B-Boying with me and we evolved into DJing and MCing. The same guys..we had Hutch, Scooter...a guy named Count..we called him Count..his name was Jeff Count...Then we had a guy named Easy E...he also became one of my MCees."
NORIN RAD:"Now as far as I know the real first generation B-Boys used to do a lot of routines when they were dancing.....like routines and doing characters. Was that something that your brother Morris (May he Rise In Paradise) and One Eyed Andre used to as well?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Right!!!! Yes! They used to dance....what would you say...pretty much in a choreographed way. At the same time....doing the same moves, you know? I used to watch them in the living room before they to went out to a Kool Herc party..they was getting ready....I was too young to go out then. And they would get their clothes out the cleaners and change their clothes and my mom had this big mirror in the living room covering the whole wall. They would practice their routines before they went out."
NORIN RAD:"I'm glad that you have mentioned One Eyed Andre because this name keeps popping up again and again. I heard Fuji (The D-Squad) one of Grandmaster Flash's elite B-Boys mentioning him among many others. What kind of guy was One Eyed Andre and what was your relationship with him? Oh, where did that name come from?"
DJ KOOL JOE:" Oh, One Eyed Andre was a great guy! Actually Andre..we were in the same neighbourhood before moving to Lambert. I knew him before he moved to Lambert Houses..His eye...he was struck in the eye with a lead pencil and his eye was pretty much..it wasn't out...just grey....he couldn't see out of it...I moved to one side of Lambert which was on 180th street..me and my family...his family lived on 1026 which was across the street and they lived on the second floor and he was a very good guy..humble...Andre was very humble and he was also a great singer. He could sing his tail off. Yeah, good humble guy...everybody loved Andre. He was a very good dancer...a veeeeery good dancer! All his moves were on top! He never hit the floor though..and I used to mimic them before I started B-Boying with my crew...I used to mimic them so I LEARNT TO DANCE ON TOP FIRST before I started to hit the floor...so I kinda evolved with it."
NORIN RAD:"What kind of routine or move was One Eyed Andre famous for?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"He was famous for that leg swing. He would take one leg and he would rock it from the back to the front and he would do top body movements at the same time. This was one of his signature moves."
NORIN RAD:"I see....and I guess your brother, Andre and them would also dress up fly when they went out to party, right?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Ah man, what are you talking about, man??!!!! (EXCITED) You're talking about Playboys and Mercury pants.....and AJ Lester... Cortefiel Coats, come man!!! We're talking about Mocknecks...yo, we're talking about double knits. They shopped a lot in Harlem on 125th street at a store called AJ Lester. If you were fly you shopped at AJ Lester's!!! That's what they said back then,"If you're fly you shop at AJ Lester!" So they stayed clean, man.. they stayed clean!"
NORIN RAD:"It is interesting to see that within your family the evolution of Breaking is quite evident as your brother Morris danced exclusively on top and then you followed him also taking the danceform to the floor. Would you also dress like your brother or would you rock different kind of gear?"
DJ Kool Joe:"Well, it was a little different for us. We looked fly but we wouldn't dress...we were a different kind of fly. When I danced I danced in...do you remember the space jackets? The old space jackets? They were all silver like you were going to the moon...yeah, we danced in stuff like that...you know, hoodies, Adidas sweatpants, Lee Jeans, Pro-Keds....until I got a little older and then I started dressing pretty much like my brother. You know, and he was like a father figure to me and he started to buy a lot of clothes for me as well. "
NORIN RAD: "So around which time where you and the Oreos in full effect in terms of Breaking?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"We're talking about 1977, 1978."
NORIN RAD:"Thank you! And which were some of the venues that you would dance at back then?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh man, me and my crew we were coming to battle everybody. Wherever there was a party we're showing up. We're coming to get'em! You know we were going to Bronx River parties and there was a guy called Beaver (legendary B-Boy from The Little Zulu Kings) who was a great dancer and there was also a couple of other guys out there that were great. Bambaataa would be rocking...Apache was the number one song... and whoever was dancing they would open up the circle a little bit more when we were coming and we would just dive on in!!! And they would save me for last! The Oreos went first and then when our opponents brought out their baddest dancer that's when I came out and did my thing. We just wanted to have fun and that's we did! We had fun! We came home and talked about it all week.. in school and stuff like that. Actually, I was a tiny bit older than the rest of the crew and we would talk about it in the neighbourhood 'cause you know when we'd come out the house we'd come out to hang with each other and we would just talk about it, you know?! And we pretty much had our fans in the neighbourhood that loved us and they would circle around us and hear our stories about what happened at the parties. We lived and breathed it, man! We'd come outside....and we'd come out with our boombox and hang out and dance in front of the building at night and we'd have a big circle and we would have other B-Boys coming over from Bronx River or B-Boys from Castle Hill or from 800 Southern Boulevard that wanted to battle us right there! And we would do the same thing...come to their neighbourhood just as well and just jump in the circle and battle!"
NORIN RAD:"Okay, could you explain to me please where those beats came from that you were blasting from your boombox at those late night B-Boy sessions?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Well, we would go to parties to record those beats. We would just go to Bambaataa's parties at Bronx River or wherever he was partying and record his music. Or sometimes we would get our hands on something that was recorded, you know, because back then they also sold cassette tapes. They gave parties and they did the system and recorded it and people purchased it. Or you would bring your boombox and just go ahead and record the music from where you were standing. You want to remember that music passed through different hands, through different neighbourhoods so it wasn't so much about paying for it. It was like who do you know and who knows who and who had what music and who had what beat on their cassette...and it was a lot about just exchanging music through cassettes."
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| Boombox from the late 1970s |
NORIN RAD:"How did you transition into DJing from B-Boying?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Like I said...my crew that I breakdanced with also evolved into DJing with me. I got interested in DJing with one of my dancers called Scooter....Scooter Rock....his name was DJ Scooter Rock and me and Scooter Rock wanted to DJ so bad. We had two old turntables...I had one from my mom's house and he had one from his mom's house and we put them together without a mixer. And we would turn the volume down from one to the other and the headphones just as well...so we would scratch one and take the headphone out from that one and put it into the next stereo and scratch that one and turn that one down vice versa."
NORIN RAD:"What made you choose the name "The M&M Crew" and which year was that?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"That was like in '78. My brother...my older brother which was M&M...he managed a record store on Crotona Avenue and he wasn't into DJing at the time and he was making very good money and I brought him to Scooter's house one day and he would watch what we was doing and so he really got interested in it. You know, he's like, "Wow! You guys are good!" Like I said he was like a father figure to me and he bought a lot of clothes for me....he took me to Fordham Road and he bought me two 1100 Technics turntables...direct drive..and he bought me a mixer just as well...it was a Gemini. And we started DJing on that. From there the rest of the equipment started developing and my brother got very interested in it as well so we called it "The M&M Crew"...DJ Kool Joe & The M&M Crew It was his name M&M but I was more of the first DJ....I did most of the routines with the MCees."
NORIN RAD:"Who were the MCees of the M&M Crew? Like the hardcore members 'cause I have seen various line-ups on different flyers..."
DJ KOOL JOE:"Ah man, I would have to say my first MCees, man, because they were more dedicated. I got to say MC Hutch, EZ E, Jimmy Joe and MC L.A. L.A. he stayed at 800 down there by Southern Boulevard and one day he just came when we were rocking and he just got down with us."
NORIN RAD:"Alright, and did the MC section of your crew have their own specific name?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes! They were the Force Four. This was the title: DJ M&M, DJ Kool Joe & The Force Four MCees."
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| The M&M Crew |
NORIN RAD:"How long did this line up of the Force Four MCees stay with you?"
DJ KOOL JOE:" I would have to say 1980 because we did do a party at the Audobon Ballroom with Melle Mel, Kid Creole and Mr. Ness (all MCees of the legendary Furious Five) and the Force Four. That was in 1979 and after that the MCees started diversing."
NORIN RAD:"Would your MCees also do routines like the Furious Four/Five and the Funky Four did?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh yes, we had several routines..several routines and MC Hutch wrote most of them. EZ E wrote a few. We had a couple of routines and then also a little dancing in it."
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| MC HUTCH (The M&M CREW) |
NORIN RAD:"That's quite interesting to hear because nowadays when you go to see a Rapper perform live all he usually does while rapping is merely walking up and down the stage but it seems as if back then DJ / MC performances were like real shows....something exciting to watch which must have required a lot of effort to be put in."
DJ KOOL JOE:"Yes sir! Routines included dance moves just as well!! And actually I caused a lot of the dance moves of the MCees....we would start off with something slow like Commodores "Zoom"....(hums the melody) and they would make their moves to that beat and after we would do that then we would change into something faster ...a little dancing...and then we would begin with the rap routine."
NORIN RAD:"Do you recall how often you and your MCees would meet up back then in order to practice your shows?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"We lived and breathed it, man! When we came home from school we would get right to it. Straight like that! We didn't do it in the house if we wanted to do more...more than what we can do in the house...like the routines we were talking about with the dance steps...we would go to our school which was called I.S. 167....they would let us bring our equipment there and we would just do our routines for whoever was at the gym that day...playing basketball or whatever...or they would just let us have the cafeteria to let us do what we needed to do. Or we just go to Lambert Center and do it there while kids were playing pool, you know stuff like that..."
NORIN RAD:"I see...and what were your regular stomping grounds back then? At which spots would you perform regularly? I guess I.S. 167 and Lambert Center were two of these spots, right? "
DJ KOOL JOE:"Oh yeah, we would do it right across the street at Bronx Park. Bronx River had their location which was in the middle of the projects. We would even do it in the middle of our projects which was called The Half. We would call it the Half because that's where the projects split up between each side. And everybody would meet at The Half anyway so...it was like a big space with a basketball court and we would do it there, man! We would do our parties there or in Bronx Park which is located right connected to the Bronx Zoo. We would have people come from all over to our parties."
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| October 20th, 1979: DJ Kool Joe & The Force Four rock with DJ Afrika Islam and his Funk Machine Crew |
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| November 23rd, 1979: The M&M Crew rocks at Bronx River Center |
NORIN RAD:"When you started DJing you didn't do backspinning but i guess you would adapt that technique later on, right?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Never!! I always thought it was cheating! I always thought it was cheating! And I consider myself to be the best. We were looked at as the underdogs but I always proved myself to be the best DJ! I just thought it was cheating. I used to practice whatever I heard anybody do I used to go to my room and try to do it double....faster...or with one hand!!! I never enjoyed spinning back. I picked that needle up and dropped it right there on the dime! When you heard people spinning with Flash and Theodore and cats like that...when you heard them spinning...they would catch "Scratching" (classic Breakbeat by the Magic Disco Machine)..I would pick the needle up on that! I'm not spinning that back! You have to remember from back when we were talking a little while ago I used to have to take the headphone out of one turntable and put it into the other turntable and put the volume down as well to mix and that would develop the speed for me when I got to a mixer. I didn't have to move the headphones anymore. It was just natural for me to be fast. I never liked spinning. I tried it once or twice and I didn't like it."
NORIN RAD:"Let's talk about some of the rules of DJing back then so that the younger cats out there understand what this artform is truly all about. Why would DJs hide the labels of their records back then?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Man, back then EVERYBODY WANTED TO HAVE THE MOST BEATS! You know, so everybody was hiding their labels 'cause they didn't want anybody to know the name of their beats 'cause then you would have the beat. So if I went to a Kool DJ AJ party or a Bambaataa party or Flash party and I'm standing close enough to the tuntable and your record wasn't covered I could see the name of it and I can go get it. That was the secret to that."
NORIN RAD: "Was that also the reason why DJs would put a rope around their set?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Right. Well, not only that....the rope was just for the crew. We would separate ourselves from the audience. You know, we were the crew so if you wasn't down with the crew or you wasn't affiliated with carrying equipment or with the MCees or with one of us you wouldn't come behind the rope."
NORIN RAD:"How difficult was it back then to get two copies of the same record in order to cut up a beat? Were there stores carrying multiple copies of various albums?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"Well actually they did have it in a record store. There were particular record stores that the DJs went to. There was this place called The Downstairs and there was this young guy called Elroy and if you became his friend....if he was kool with you he would sell you the best beats."
NORIN RAD:"Oh, so Elroy knew about beats?"
DJ KOOL JOE: "Right, and if you wasn't kool with Elroy you wouldn't get no beats. (chuckles) And back then beats were very expensive...we would pay up to 20 -25 dollars just for a snippet of a beat on a whole album. So it was difficult to buy two of them. And not only to that...we came up with a secret a lot of the beats that were being played were from old songs that our mom and dad used to play. I told my crew and those affiliated with us to raid their parents' record collection and we would get together in my house and play each one.. every side until we found a beat. And a lot of times the beats that we would catch would be something that Bambaataa (the Master of Records) played. We would be like, "Oooooh, that's it!!!!! We got it! We got it! Look at that!!!!" You know? Whatever we could use we used it."
NORIN RAD:"So you would actually listen to a lot of different albums trying to find beats that you could use for your parties?"
DJ KOOL JOE:"That's right! Beats like The Average White Band "Cut The Cake" I was one of the first DJs to ever play that beat! I took that beat to the Audobon with Flash and Theodore were side by side with me DJing and I put that song on and everybody went crazy. That's the first time they heard that record, I'm telling you!!"