Interview with B-Boy TT La Rock

                                                        Interview with B-Boy TT  La Rock

                                                

                                           

B-Boy T.T. La Rock

                                    conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders/Germany)

SIR NORIN RAD:"When and where were you born?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"I was born in the Bronx in Jacobi Hospital in 1961."

SIR NORIN RAD:"To what kind of music were you exposed as a child?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"It was music that my mother liked, old time music from my mother's and my father's era and then when I turned 13 I started buying 45s and LPs.....you know, albums. We saved our money and got a component set to play our records on. Me and my brother...'cause I had a older brother that I grew up with and I had two more brothers but they lived in Ohio. So me and my older brother we used to buy posters and records and we would go to the movies and stuff like that. We would combine our money so we could get what we wanted. My parents listened to James Brown and Little Richard and all those guys from back then. My mother was in love with Little Richard. So we had a lot of Little Richard albums around the house. Gladys Knight & The Pips, The Whispers, Earth, Wind & Fire...yeah you know, it was mostly groups back then. R&B groups."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please explain how you got into B-Boying!"

T.T. LA ROCK:"As I grew up I started liking music and I started dancing. I started dancing to like Hiphop music (the breakbeats). I was born in 1961 so by 1971 I was ten years old and I was probably in the 3th grade. I had asthma when I was young so I used to be sick a lot. I used to stay out of school and then I used to be home a lot. So sometimes I used to run around and leave the house and go outside. I wasn't supposed to do that. I was supposed to be sick but I started feeling better while I was at home and I would sneak outside to go run around and then I found myself being around other people. You know, that was outside, that didn't go to school and stuff like that. And one of my partners became Georgie Brooks. A little guy. He was a Muslim. His whole family was Muslim. That's how I became introduced to the teachings of the Nation Of Islam. Me and him we were in the same grade in P.S. 39 on Longwood Avenue in the South Bronx. So when I started hanging out with him he took me to this basement area one day in Hunts Point on Garrison Avenue. It was on Garrison & Irvine and it was in the basement and they was playing music down there. I had never been to a basement party before. I had been to house parties before that. This guy Ray was down there DJing. I think his name was Ray or something like that. That was the first time I saw somebody DJing. They was like moving the speakers around and trying to do a sound check and all that. Then they started playing the music. Then people started dancing and then I started seeing people Breaking on the floor. There was a group of B-Boys who all wore black velours hats. I was like,"What are they doing?" 'cause I didn't know what they was doing so I asked Georgie, "What are they doing?"It was me, him. Then he went and got his cousin Gregory Martin who went by the name of G-Man and he also went and got Lil' Tim. I was Big Tim and he was Lil' Tim. He was G-Man's little brother. They was from Bruckner Boulevard and their older brother was DJ Dice. Then they went and got this big guy.... he was about my size or a little bigger... named Terry.  He was all over the place 'cause he was big. He used to do spins and jumping around and floating all over the place. So I was really like, "What is he doing? He is going wild!!" So they was telling me that they was Breaking but I liked the way that they was doing it 'cause they was doing with the style!!!!  They had a little style with the kicking their feet and spinning around! They was doing all the moves and stuff! So I was like,"Wow, man!! You gotta show me how to do that!" So the next day when we met up we was in the hallway 'cause we used to meet up in the hallway and we used to buy liquor  and cigarettes. We was young. So we couldn't let people know that we was drinking and smoking cigarettes. We were little bad boys. I ain't gonna lie. So they started showing me how to go down. They called it "Going down". The first move was how to go down. You know, where you kick your feet and then you put them together and you spin down and you go down and you touch the floor and then you start kicking your feet forward and all that. Then they showed me how to do some spins and turns and freezes. You know, how to freeze and stop with the beat. They would teach me like a little bit at the time. Step by step. Different little moves and everything. Moves that they liked to do. Each of them had like different moves that they liked to do, that they considered their best moves. Moves that they did when they wanted to impress people around them. So I started gathering up all the moves, learning all the steps from everybody that was there in the hallway. So then I started to go to parties with them more and then in the party I started dancing myself. I started B-Boying in the party with all of us in the group. I became like a part of their group. They had a girl in their group named Beedie B. She was a female and she used to Break with us, too. We were around for quite some time. I got introduced to DJ Mean Gene (from the L-Brothers) one time. I was going up on Boston Road but we lived on 163rd & Simpson Street. So we used to call that 163rd. 163rd Street ran from Southern Boulevard all the way over to Webster Avenue or whatever, right? We travelled a lot but this time I just went up on Boston Road for the first time and they had a little minischool up there on 169th Street or 168th Street and DJ Mean Gene was playing in the minischool. That's first I seen Mean Gene DJing and playing music and he used to B-Boy, too!!! He had big feet so we used to call him Big Feet Gene. A lot of people don't know that about him. He was from the L-Brothers. He used to be with Cordie-O and Theodore and all them. So I met him up there and so I knew him as a street DJ. He was a guy that was DJing in the street. That was the first time I saw a DJ in the street. I was used to be in a club and then I saw him and he was in the street. We used to go all around our borough. It was like a big adventure. I didn't start going out my borough until later. When I first was in the public school P.S. 39 on Longwood Avenue...that was my area, you know? Union Avenue, Intervale Avenue all those areas in the South Bronx where they have the police station Fort Apache. That was my police station, the 41st precinct. We came up in a rough gang area. When I graduated from P.S. 39 I went to I.S. 116 when they first opened up. Everybody else used to go to JHS 133 but I didn't go to JHS 133 'cause they opened up a new school called I.S. 116. So I went to that school 'cause it was right up the street from where I was living. I lived on Barretto Street and the school was on Fox Street. But we used to play basketball against JHS 133. I used to go over there and I used to see Melle Mel and them B-Boying in JHS 133 'cause they was B-Boys, too!! It was Mellle Mel and Mr. Ness. They was B-Boying in JHS 133, in the gym, in the yard. " 

 

Original South BX B-Girl Beedie B

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did you ever run into a B-Boy by the name of Bruce Lee who was down with the Casanovas?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Oh yeah, yeah!! I was a Casanova! I was in the Casanova Crew with Tiny and them. Bruce Lee, Papa Smurf, Nunu, Cletus, Little Peanut that died. It wasn't a lot of them though that were B-Boys.  Most of the ones that was B-Boying from the Casanovas  was me and Bruce Lee. A lot of them did security. I ain't gonna lie. A lot of them were more or less drug dealers and stick up kids. We was hustling hard back then ! I loved to dance 'cause I always danced since I was little." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What kind of spot was the Casita Maria?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Everybody used to come to the Casita Maria where we had a lot of pretty girls there from Simpson Street and my area. Hoe Avenue and all that. They used to come to the Casita Maria. It was a night center. I mean not night center, you had to be 14 years or older to go there. You would go to the day center until you turned 14. Then you were allowed to go to the night center. They had CYO basketball tournaments there, juniors and seniors. We were like the most notorious center for basketball. We always came in first place. We used to go to the circuit and win. Grandmaster Flash used to come down there and give a party. That's when I really started battling against Mr. Ness and them in the basement of Casita Maria. We used to battle! That's where he used to do that snake move. He used to go down on the floor and wiggle around like a serpent!  Everybody used to go, "Wow!!!" Everybody used to get crazy when he did that. That's how I knew Mr. Ness was a real good B-Boy and he was a wild dude back then. He used to win a lot of battles. So I used to be careful Breaking with him 'cause I didn't want him to embarass me sometimes. B-Boying was totally different back then. It wasn't a whole lot of gymnastics and stuff like that like they do now. Now they put a lot of aerodynamics to it, you know? People look they been in gymnasium to learn how to do that shit but back then it was like mostly floor moves and, you know, Breaking and stopping and freezing and pretending to be talking on the telephone and then giving it to somebody or you'd make a window and then you'd open the window and then you'd look through it and push the other guy in the face. You know, it was a lot of theatrical clown shit that had everybody laughing like, "Oh shit, look what he did!" 

SIR NORIN RAD:"How many people would fit in the Casita Maria and how many B-Boys would be doing their thing there?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Well, this is what started happening, right? First you had the Barretto Street Crew. We used to call ourselves the Barretto Boys, right? The Barretto Boys lived right down there . Then you had the Simpson Street Crew. The Simpson Street Crew lived right up the block right on Simpson Street because the Casita Maria is on Simpson Street in a two blocks  radius and then you turn into Fox Street. They meet like in a little triangle right there. Those three blocks! Fox, Barretto and Simpson and then they expand and go into another direction, right? So you had the Fox Street Boys, Barretto Street Boys, Simpson Street Boys. Then Southern Boulevard Boys would come over from Southern Boulevard. They had the Southern Boulevard Crew. Then you had the Hunts Point Crew! Then you had the Hoe Avenue Crew and many other crews from around that area and they would come over there and all of them had B-Boys in their crews. Back then you was recognized from the neighbourhood you come from. If you was from Hoe Avenue, you was Hoe Avenue Crew. " 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who was the DJ of the Casita Maria?" 

T.T. LA ROCK:"The DJ of the Casita Maria was Grandmaster Flash. Casita Maria and the area around Casita Maria all we had was DJ Flash! I mean, we also had DJ Mean Gene and the L-Brothers sometimes. They would come through there and do their thing. See this is what happened. The first person I really met was Grandmaster Flash 'cause he lived right across the street from me. I lived on Barretto Street and Flash lived on Fox Street. That's when he lived on Fox Street before he moved to Prospect Avenue. At that time they didn't even have two turntables!!  All they had was one component set. He went to Samuel Gompers High School for electronics. Him and OG 2 (legendary Writer from The Fabulous Five Crew).  He used to write on the trains first. Before he was a DJ he was a graffiti artist (a Writer). We used to call him Banana Nose Joe 'cause he got a big nose. I watched Flash. I used to watch him. He used to be with my cousin OG 2. They used to drink together and go write on the train and everything. So I used to watch him. He used to come out on his stoop with a component set, with one album and one needle, right? He used to hook that thing up to the lamp post! Right in front of the building! He knew a lot about electricity because he went to Samuel Gompers High School. He learnt that in that school. So he would stand in front of his building and play the record and he would hold the needle in one hand and he would drop the needle back real quick every time he wanted it to repeat what it was saying on the record. He used to be in front of his building with little speakers and everything! And the block used to have a little party with him in front of his building! That's when he first started. Flash started DJing in the basement of Casita Maria. That's the first party that we had with Flash and Melle Mel, Kid Creole, Cowboy and them. That's in the basement. In the basement that's where we shot pool at. Flash used to always play this slow record "I Don't Want Go" by The Moments to end his parties. That's when they used to slow dance.  That's something they don't do no more but we used to slow dance before we left the party. Then from the basement they let him do parties upstairs in the gym. Then they started throwing parties on the roof and that's when Grandwizard Theodore and them started coming over there. That's when they started giving the roof parties on top of Casita Maria's roof!  They had a fence around it 'cause it was a night center. So they didn't want people to break in and steal their basketballs and all that stuff. So they had a big fence around the whole roof of the Casita Maria so nobody could fall off. You didn't have to worry about not being safe. It was fenced off.  Once they figured out how they could get the equipment up there and how they could get the electricity and all that stuff they let Flash do parties up there. They gave out flyers and the flyers said, "Casita Maria Rooftop Party!" Larry Savage was the one in control of the night center at Casita Maria. Jeffrey Bellows was another one. Mr. Jefferson ran the whole thing. I forgot his first name."

SIR NORIN RAD:"When did Grandmaster Flash start playing at the Casita Maria?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"I would say that they didn't get that spot going until about 1975. I had to be about 14 years old to get in there, right? So in 1975 I was fourteen. Later on I would see Mel and them in 18 Park. That's when they had started MCing. Flash would play "Super Sporm" by Captain Sky and "Trans Europe Express" by Kraftwerk. Melle Mel was saying that rhyme about,"I'm Melle Mel and I rock so well! From the T-O-P to the depths of hell!"We was Breaking to that, right?"

SIR NORIN RAD:"How would you describe your style of Breaking?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"I used to Break real hard and do like a lot of the foot movement on the ground! Real fast like my legs would look like they would move at lightning speed. I would add a little flip and everything. Then I used to spin real hard, like real fast  and then I would act like a little baby crying on the ground. I used to beat my head on the ground and make my leg move back and forth like a baby whining.  Then I used to come back up real quick and start dancing again. That was my finishing move. I used to call that "The Baby Crying"! And it would always be to the beat of the music! Like especially on "Apache"!

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please describe how you would dress up back then!"

T.T. LA ROCK:"I used to always wear Pro-Keds 69ers. I used to wear Pumas. I used to wear British Walkers and Sharkskins. I used to wear a lot of A.J. Lester gear. I used to wear Alpaca V-Neck Sweaters...Remember that picture that I sent you? That was from 1978. I was 16 years old going on 17. I got green suede Converse joints on. I also got the green Globetrotters shorts on and the long tube socks with the lines around them and the t-shirt. You can see that I was going to be Breaking."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please elaborate on the B-Boys and B-Girls that you used to run with back then! Like who was down with your crew?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"My little crew was me, Little G aka Georgie Brooks and then we had G-Man aka Gregory Martin. We also had Little Tim. He passed away.  God bless the dead! He got killed up in 22 Park. He got shot. Everybody called him Lil Lightning Legs. He was sweet with his! It was him and Lil Joe. We had Lil Joe with us. Then there was Rabbit from Simpson Street. He was also a 5 Percenter. He was down with the Nation of Gods & Earths. Thus his righteous name was Prince. He used to do back flips as part of his routines. We used to dance together at the Casita Maria. Nobody could do back flips better than him. I already told you about Beedie B. We also had Maurice aka Moe Gator. He was from Hunts Point off Manida Avenue. We all started in Hunts Point on Garrison Avenue & Irvine Street in the 1970ies."

Original South BX B-Boy G-Man

SIR NORIN RAD:"I spoke to a B-Boy from Monroe Houses called Worm who mentioned your name to me. Please describe how you met him!"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Yeah!!! Ricky Worm!!! That's my partner! He called me Timmy Tim! Me and Worm used to party hard. That was my partner when I came over there! He used to work in a grocery store in Stevenson Commons. He got a brother named Scottie. So when I went to the store I asked him to make me a Hero sandwich and then we just started talking a lot. He came outside and we started talking. I started hanging out with him, going to his store a lot.  Then we started getting high together, smoking weed, walking around the whole projects. He knew my first baby mother Frajon Drayton out of 870 Rosedale. She was my 9th grade sweetheart. Then I found out that he could Breakdance because we went to a lot of parties together. We went everywhere where music was playing. We started to show off our moves!  That ni**er could dance! Man, listen! We used to be Breaking in JHS 123 and the parties DJ Mario used to give. We used to breakdance in Sack Wern, Noble Park and Monroe Projects. Everywhere we went we used to Breakdance together.  His move was the Worm because he used to slide around the ground like a worm which mad him a great B-Boy. Everybody knew Worm from Monroe Projects. He was real popular. He had curly black hair. I had one baby mother over there, he had like about five baby mothers. He had a lot of kids over there! Ricky was a wild dude!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"I was told that he used to dance with a drink in his hand."

T.T. LA ROCK:"Yeah, all the time!! Yeah! Old English! That ni**er would drink Old English all the time! "

SIR NORIN RAD:"So you would go mainly to DJ Afrika Bambaataa's and DJ Mario's parties?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Yeah, 'cause Worm loved Mario and Bambaataa. Much respect to the Zulu Nation but their music was different from everybody else's music."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What makes you say that?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"They was all hypnotized by his music. He played some really crazy breakbeats and that shit went on for a long time without stopping! He had the strobe lights and all the fast bulbs going. He had them really going! You'd go to a Zulu Nation Afrika Bambaataa party in JHS 123 with nobody else being there but him and his crew......man, the whole gym would be lit. The strobe lights would you make look white ashy and shit and everybody looked like they was moving in slow motion. Like on some bizarre shit! You would be like, "What the hell is going on?" All of them would be dancing and all of them would be happy. It was crazy. The Zulu Kings would be doing their thing there. Cholly Rock and them. Craig Butler! Did you interview Craig Butler? Craig was a bad dude with it!!!! His younger brother Mike introduced me to him as we were close friends when I first came over to that area of the Bronx."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What had caused you initially to go to the Southeast Bronx? Why did you go to places such as Bronxdale, Bronx River and Monroe?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"I went to where DJ Mario was at and DJ Afrika Bambaataa and all of them because I went to Adlai E. Stevenson High School which was in the Soundview section of the Bronx. I used my aunt's address 955 Evergreen Avenue since I lived outside the district in 934 Barretto Street. I graduated from I. S. 116 which was intermediate 7th to 8th grade in 1977. So I entered Adlai E. Stevenson High School as a 9th grade freshman. That's when I met all of them. That's when I started going to JHS 123 parties.  Me and Crazy Eddie from the Casanova Crew used to go over to JHS 123. It was like a brand new Hiphop and Breaking experience for me under different DJs and B-Boys. In Adlai E. Stevenson I met Charlie Chew who would later MC for the Jazzy Four / Five. Charlie Chew was a B-Boy, too. He used to breakdance with me at Stevenson High School. We used to be in the gym working out together and stuff like that because we were both part of Stevenson's  football team. They played music for the workout so I started Breaking and then he said, "Yo, you can breakdance?" I said,"Yeah, I know how to breakdance." Then he said, "I know how to breakdance, too!" So then he started Breaking and then we both started going off while we were supposed to be working out in the weight room. He was DJing and giving parties in Soundview and he would dance at his parties. He knew how to breakdance real good. We used to call him Charlie Choo Choo 'cause he was like a choo choo train." 

B-Boy Craig Butler

SIR NORIN RAD:"What were some of the other spots that you used to go to back then in order to dance?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"I used to be over there with DJ Smokey and them on Grant Avenue, too. I had a girlfriend that lived on Clay Avenue & 168th Street named Denise Samuels. She had a cousin named Gladys who lived on Sheridan Avenue. We used to hang out in her apartment. I used to be up there with my cousin named Trigger. Trigger lived on Findlay Avenue. Grant Avenue is right in between Morris Avenue and Sheridan Avenue. One day I was walking past there with Trigger. I remember they had a little supermarket that I went to. Then I heard the music out there! They was out there...DJ Smokey with the music and everything and I saw the Smoke-A-Trons Breaking in the street.  So I asked my cousin Trigger, "Who that over there?" So he's like,"Oh that's  DJ Smoke, they call him Smokey and he got the Smoke-A-Trons." Then he told me that they used to be in the Burger King where we would be at on Prospect Avenue and everything and I didn't know that. So I said, "Oh, they be up there?" He said, "Yeah, that's where Meth be at all the time." Meth was a hustler. So then I started Breaking against the Smoke-A-Trons. Matter of fact I danced against them multiple times and then I started liking their crew and we started talking and chilling some time together and then one time I went to Burger King with them and we was up in the Burger King doing our thing in the Burger King on Prospect. That was the night I think Hootenanny from the Casanovas got hit. There was some ruckus outside of the Burger King and the cab driver took off 'cause he got scared and he hit Hootenanny when he took off and hurt his legs. All this happened around 1975 or 1976." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"It seems to me that oftentimes fights broke out at those jams. Why was this the case?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"You had so many different crews there with so many different reputations. So you had to be aware of so many different cats. The beefs would mostly start because there was cats coming to the parties that had big reputations at least in their own areas. So if I had a big reputation in my area and I was known not to take no bullshit and I was known to take your shit if you started some shit you could be in trouble, you know what I'm saying?? It was like one of them things where you had to know somebody that would be really hanging out around there 'cause if you don't really know somebody and somebody finds out that you're a nobody trying to be somebody then they would start some shit! They would walk up to you, man, and push you or some shit or slap your hat off."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who came to the parties with that kind of energy? Was it the B-Boys or the cats that ran with them?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Well, this is what I can tell you. It was mostly like this: The DJs and the MCs they were basically good guys, right? The B-Boys?? They were kind of shady. (laughs) In other words they were good guys, too, but you know what I'm saying some of the B-Boys were really stick-up kids and shit like that, too. They had bad behaviours. Like I used to go to Flash's parties and I remember this girl got shot at the Mitchell Gym over there on Alexander Avenue. There was this guy called Red Jack he sold CP30 which was some sort of Angel Dust. If you knew the personality behind the name then you knew what the Angel Dust effect was. We had different names for different types of Angel Dust. Red Jack and them they were in the back of Mitchell Gym. See, they used to party in the front. Doing the Hustle, Breaking and shit and then in the back where the bathroom was at they was shooting dice. They had big dice games going. So that's where all the money was at and so that's also where the Angel Dust was sold at. So now you had the stick-up kids back there 'cause they knew that all that money was there because of the dice games and the guys that sold Angel Dust and the stick-up kids get the idea that they gonna rob the Angel Dust guys and the dice guys, all at the same time and then leave the party. So they do that. They rob' em. Willy Bang was involved in that robbery against Red Jack and them from Manhattan. So they got robbed and they went back to Manhattan to get their guns and then they came to the Bronx to the party. They stood across the street and they started shooting at people that came out the party that they thought was involved in the shit because of what they're wearing. Like black Leather Bombers or whatever. But the guys that had robbed them had already left. So this innocent girl got shot in the jaw with a 45. The police is right there, they're  coming out of the police station. I go over there to see what's happening and Flash and them come outside and for no reason whatsoever Flash looks at me right there with the police standing there and he says to me,"Why every time you come to my party all this shit happens?" So I'm like, "Why the hell are you saying this to me for? I ain't got nothing to do with this shit! I'm just coming to the party." So I just turned around with my girl and left. But that's the type of shit that was going on back then. They used to call me all the time to the front. They used to say,"Timmy Romance, would you please come to the front?" So then me and my crew we used to come to the front and they used to be like,"Yo, would you please tell the stick-up kids not to do no shit?" So I said,"Aight, let me go." So I used to confront them ni****s like, "Yo, wassup, man? Flash and them said y'all can't be robbing ni****s in the bathroom. Chill out with that shit! Take it outside, man! We wanna have a decent party. We don't wanna have to stop the party on behalf of what you guys are doing in the bathroom."  They used to love me for this shit but at the same time they also blamed me for shit that popped off at the parties. So I told them, "You can't have it both ways!" I mean sometimes I did start some shit (laughs)."

Melle Mel & T.T. La Rock

SIR NORIN RAD:"I heard about a spot where Flash used to throw parties at and it was a boxing ring or something like that. Could you please elaborate on that?"

T.T. LA ROCK:" Yeah, that's 1111 Fox!! They just tore that down. That was the P.A.L. for the police. The police that used to run that and used to give it to Flash was called Big George from the 41st precinct. He was a detective. He trained me to be a boxer 'cause he was a boxing trainer, too.That was a boxing gym. I used to box in there and train. Big George would get with Flash and Ray Chandler and he would let them party there. It was on 1111 Fox Street. We called it 1111 Fox. All of us was in there! The Barretto Crew, the Hoe Avenue Crew. All of us. They used to be in the ring with the DJ equipment and everything. We'd be on the side dancing and everything. We had a lot of room in there to dance and everything. And like I said Flash would always play "I Don't Wanna Go" by The Moments at the end of the party. But before that we used to be Breaking hard to joints like "That's The Joint" by Van McCoy. Me as a B-Boy I was really part of Grandmaster Flash's crew. Everywhere Flash went, I went. Savoy Manor, 1111 Fox, Mitchell Gym, Casita Maria, Rosevelt High School."

Van McCoy - That's The Joint 1976

SIR NORIN RAD:"What were your top Breakbeats back then?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Well, my top breakbeat was "Apache". The break part of "Apache"!! I got my rhythm off of that. I knew when the break was coming in. When that beat came on it was electrifying for us!!!!  

SIR NORIN RAD:"What do these days mean to you in retrospect?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"It was a good time!! It was a time when we was coming up and we had something to do. It made us feel like we was free. Just doing what we wanted to do as kids growing up. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you like to give some shoutouts at the end of this interview?"

T.T. LA ROCK:"Yeah, I would like to shout out Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five! And I would like to give a shoutout to my personal crew! To Georgie Brooks, G-Man aka Greg Martin, Beedie B, Lil Tim (RIP), Rabbit. To my Simpson Street Crew: Righteous, Wisdom Born, Jimmy aka Slick. It's a whole lot of them out there, man! To the Casanova Crew! To Ricky Worm! I could go on forever...and shoutouts to you  Norin Rad!"

 SIR NORIN RAD:"Thank you! I want to shout out my Intruders Crew as well as all the true pioneers of Hiphop! Shout outs to Sureshot La Rock, Kenny IB, Input MZK, Leon Skee NHS! Ukubambisana!!!! To Mr. Wiggles, Troy L. Smith, Pete Nice and Pluto 7!"

Interview with B-Boy / DJ Ice

                                                              Interview with DJ Ice

B-Boy / DJ Ice

                                     conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders / Germany)

SIR NORIN RAD:"When and where were you born?" 

DJ ICE:"I was born in New York, Manhattan in 1959 on November 2nd."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did you grow up at?"

DJ ICE:"Until I was about three or four I actually lived in Chinatown. I lived on Chrystie Street in Chinatown. The building is still there, believe it or not. And from there we moved to Brooklyn. Howard Projects...I lived there. Then we moved to the Bronx in 1968/1969.  So I was nine or ten years old. I lived in the South Bronx on Longfellow Avenue. 172nd Street & Longfellow Avenue. I lived there for a couple of years. Elementary school was right on the corner. There was this big schoolyard. I remember playing baseball there when I was a kid. I used to love to play baseball but the neighbourhood was gang infected. I mean we had gangs everywhere. I lived in a neighbourhood with the Javelins. The Black Spades were a couple of blocks down. The Savage Nomads were up the hill by Hoe Avenue.  Yeah, I remember that! Matter of fact, I was in the Baby Javelins. Then we moved to Davidson Avenue.....176th Street & Davidson Avenue. From Davidson Avenue then I moved to River Park Towers. The year was....I wanna say it was 1974. 1974 we moved there. 1974/1975."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What was it like to move from the South Bronx to the West Bronx back then?"

DJ ICE:"It was different. The neighbourhood was different. It was clean. River Park Towers was brand new.  The attitudes was different. It was nice. It was very nice to tell the truth. We needed that. My family needed that, needed some fresh air. We needed a new beginning. The struggle wasn't like it was anywhere else. It was a different struggle."

                               

River Park Towers, BX 

SIR NORIN RAD:"To what kind of music were you exposed as a child growing up?"

DJ ICE:"Back then...Saturday morning it was always.. everywhere....every household that I knew of anyway including mine..you would wake up, your parents would put the R&B on and you would clean the house.  So the music is going, we're cleaning up the house. That was cleaning day. Everything is smelling fresh. Mom is in the kitchen and she's throwing together breakfast. So that's what Saturday was about and it was R&B music mainly. A lot of R&B: Gladys Knight, James Brown, Al Green, Isley Brothers, Ray Charles. That's what it was like. R&B in the morning. It was nice."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did James Brown's music affect you back then?"

DJ ICE:"Man, I remember back in the sixties James Brown was the man!!! So I don't care what was the song it was in the house. As soon as it came out your parents would get the 45 if they couldn't afford the album and we would be in the house jamming!!! And we would play that song until we got tired of it. He was the man back then."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Now you told me that you started out as a B-Boy and that your B-Boy partner was a guy called Motorcycle Man. Please elaborate on that!"

DJ ICE:"B-Boying was so fresh. It was new.  It was a way to express yourself and the funny thing about it was if there was a beat on the song they would just keep the beat going. So it gave everybody the opportunity to get their shit off, to dance. One day I'm dancing in this crowd and afterwards this guy comes up to me, this young guy. He was about my height. He asked me,"Yo, man! What's your name?" I told him my name. He said, "Man, they call me Motorcycle Man. I'm looking for a partner." I said,"What you mean?" He said, "Well, we're going around and challenge people and take 'em out breakdancing." I said, "That sounds kool, man!" He said,"So would you like to be my partner?" And I said,"Yeah!" Back then I had this one move that I would move like the Bionic Man 'cause it seemed to me that everybody had their own move and their name matched their move. I would start running real slow, then I would run faster and faster. Back then people were still watching "Get Smart" and "Superman".  "James Bond-007". Stuff like that. A lot of the people in the streets that were B-Boying had these names! There was a guy named Clark Kent. He was a B-Boy. There was a guy called James Bond. And they had the moves to match. So that's what was going on back then. There were two brothers..The Ni**er Twins. They would walk around with trenchcoats and they would be like Groucho Marx and his brothers. So it was kool!! It was a special time. It was a time of expression."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What made your partner pick that name Motorcycle Man?"

DJ ICE:"He would do his footwork and then go into a spin, drop down on the ground, back up  and then go into this motorcycle thing. He would be sitting there, squatted down, he would act like he was holding the handle bars, he would kick like he was starting the bike and then he would be going off with the bike real slow and come at you. It was kool! It was a kool move!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did he live at? Was he also from River Park Towers?"

DJ ICE:"Yeah, yeah he lived in building 10. He lived on the 32nd floor, building 10. We hung out together everyday. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did you meet him for the first time?"

DJ ICE:"It was a block party at River Park Towers on the top level. The DJ at the time was DJ Prince. It was DJ Prince and DJ Kojak throwing that party."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Were DJ Prince and DJ Kojak also from River Park Towers?"

DJ ICE:"Yeah, DJ Prince was also from building 10. I believe he lived on the 31st floor. I spent a lot of days in that building with them guys. At that point Motorcycle Man would carry their albums..like crates of records...when they would go to have a party. He would carry the equipment, you know? And when they practiced he was allowed to practice and build his DJ skill. DJ Prince and DJ Kojak had become friends because their fathers worked together at Chrysler. They were part of a group....a bunch of guys like four or five guys....they got together from Chrysler and bought this club and they called it the Executive Playhouse. " 

October 6th, 1978: DJ Ice & DJ Kojak are rocking at the Audubon Ballroom in Harlem along with the L-Brothers, the Brothers Disco and The Herculords.

SIR NORIN RAD:"Let's go back to your B-Boy days for a second. Where would you and Motorcycle Man B-Boy at? Did you stay at River Park Towers or were you also aware of Kool DJ Herc and DJ Smokey?"

DJ ICE:"Yeah! Now listen, back in the early days when we first met we were young. We didn't go too far away from River Park Towers. It was clean and safe. We knew what to expect there so we didn't go too far but Kool DJ Herc was right down the street. He was right across the bridge. You make a right, you go down a quarter mile and there go his building.So whenever he gave a block party at 1600 Park 'cause that's where he would play outside you could hear the music. The only thing that divided us was really a highway and once you crossed that bridge which went over the highway you were right at Kool Herc's party. It was a bridge big enough for traffic and it was a school on that bridge 229. School busses and city busses used to come on that bridge, go into River Park Towers, go around and come back out. So we would hop down to Herc's parties. Now DJ Smokey was from Grant Avenue. He had the equipment in his house, he would open the windows and put the speakers outside. We would go to his parties, too! Motorcycle Man was good friends with DJ Smokey. I even was at the party where Smokey battled Herc. We was there for that. Smokey was good people! Oh, man!! Between listening to Kool DJ Herc,  listening to DJ Smokey and listening to DJ Prince...it was a change in the air!!! You could feel a change!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please describe how you felt at these parties! Lovebug Starski once stated in an interview that he loved to attend those jams back then because the breakbeat music there made him feel like the Holy Spirit would take control over him. Did you experience something similar?"

DJ ICE:"Yeah! You gotta remember you're dealing with a lot of young people. Most of the people who went to these parties were anywhere from twelve to seventeen years old. That was the majority of the crowd. They had a different mindset. They wanted to hear the beats!! So when the breakbeat came on and they kept that beat going...oh my God!!! You would start moving your feet, you would start feeling the vibe. You would just feel it and go with it!!! You would lose your mind!! And then the thing about it...we was so young at the time it was right before summer youth corps jobs. So a lot of us... if you wasn't hustling and you didn't know the streets like that a lot of us was broke! But we still was at the parties!!! We would put on whatever we could put on to make us look good and we would be at them parties, man!!! And sometimes the parties would be 50 cent back then in the early days and you might have 3$ in your pocket but you didn't care, you paid the 50 cent. I know guys back then that went to parties that didn't have no money at all and they would be standing outside to see who's in there, just to be part of the scene and to listen to the music on the sidewalk when the door opened and closed."

August 26th 1978: DJ Ice & DJ Kojak are rocking at the Sparkle in the Bronx along with the L-Brothers and DJ Tibbs.

SIR NORIN RAD:"What did B-Boying look like when you were doing it?"

DJ ICE:"It was a lot of footwork (on top). You started out with your footwork. Then you would go into spinning and you could spin high and work your way low and if you worked your way low normally you would do some move on the ground Then it would be footwork on the ground. You wouldn't roll around and get your clothes dirty. You did not spin on your head. We didn't do that. Then you would pop up and you would do a stylish move that you developed. It could be swaying back and forth with your foot moving in a certain way. Sometimes there was B-Boys that you could watch just do footwork and you would be amazed  because it looked like their feet never touched the floor. They was so nice! Sasa was one of those!!!! There was a B-Boy from River Park Towers named Carl. He was like that! Another B-Boy Mike..he was like that, too! They would do the Robot but not like what you would see on Soul Train. It was different. It wasn't no Popping and Locking. It was routines, it was coordinated. It was something to watch. But believe me they wasn't tearing up their clothes. They wasn't on their knees and they wasn't on their backs. It was different.  You gotta remember we still were in the era of James Brown! He was still the man! Watching him dance inspired us.  Then later on we started dancing with the girls. We were doing the Hustle. That was the thing."

SIR NORIN RAD:"I was told by numerous B-Boys from the West Bronx that there was another outstanding B-Boy from River Park Towers who went by the name of Sunny. Do you remember him as well?"

DJ ICE:" Yeah, yeah!! Now Sunny he was the original DJ Kojak. DJ Prince and DJ Kojak... that lasted maybe a year and then my partner Motorcycle Man became the new DJ Kojak. Now Sunny at that point just bounced back to being Sunny and he would just hang out at the parties.  He didn't DJ no more. Nothing, That' s when Carl started  dancing and he got real got at it! I mean real good. This kid was nasty!! He hooked up with Mike and they was partners. They was nice and they also lived in River Park Towers. Mike lived in building 20 on the 6th floor."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you say that Carl and Mike were the best B-Boys out of River Park Towers?"

DJ ICE:"Oh yeah, the Westside. Period. It wasn't just River Park Towers, it was the Westside. You gotta understand Kool DJ Herc got a lot of his crowd from the Eastside. From The Nine. From Webster Avenue & 169th Street and from Washington  Avenue & 169th Street. Of course he also had people coming from the Westside but River Park Towers being new we started to make a name for ourselves. It was a lot of talent in River Park Towers. A lot of talent!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"What caused you to pick up DJing?"

DJ ICE:"Like I said me and Motorcycle Man were best friends. Hanging out with him he said, "Kojak left the group. I'm going to become the new Kojak." And he said, "There is room for you to take my old spot." I said,"Are you sure?" He said, "Yeah! Let's go meet Prince!" So he took me up to DJ Prince's house. I met DJ Prince. I got introduced to him and before you know slowly but surely I started hanging out with them everyday. I became the guy to help  move their equipment and then eventually I started practicing with DJ Princce and the new DJ Kojak. So it was Motorcycle Man aka. DJ Kojak who actually brought me in. By DJ Prince's father being one of the owners  of  the Executive Playhouse we would soon become the house DJs.We played there almost every weekend if not by ourselves we played against Kool DJ Herc. We would be set up on one side of the stage and Herc would be set up on the other. It wasn't a battle. I wouldn't call it that. But we played and there I learnt a lot. My eyes opened up. I got to experience a lot. I got to experience a whole different atmosphere. Not of the block parties but the club atmosphere. I tell you my mind was blown away because I was a teenager and I saw kids my age go up to the bar. Walking away with Champale, Grenadine and a cherry. Back then it was different in New York. Young kids was doing their thing, man! Forget about it, the year we all experienced Summer Youth Corps jobs????Oh my God! Everybody was getting fresh. everybody went to Delancey Street and to 125th Street in Harlem. The Playboy shoes!! Yeah, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Back then we did what we had to do. People learnt how to hustle at young ages. You lived for the weekends!!!! (excited) We got fresh and we went to the parties.. Yeeeeah, man! This is way before they had leather sneakers. We wore Pro-Keds and Pumas. You'd get splivey like we used to say back in the 1970ies. There was also a word back then that you used for your best friend. You didn't call him "My best friend!" you'd call him "My mellow!" That means somebody is really kool with you. That was a different time. It was a time of expression. It really was."

                                                       

April 9th, 1977: DJ Ice & DJ Kojak are rocking at the Sparkle in the Bronx along Kool DJ Herc and Coke La Rock.

April 29th, 1978: DJ Ice and DJ Kojak battle Kool DJ Troy and DJ Dizzy Diz at the legendary Webster P.A.L. in the Bronx.   

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please describe how you would get ready for going to a party in the 1970ies!"

DJ ICE:"When I got that Summer Youth Corps job, man, I would get new clothes, bring them home and then Friday or Saturday night you would be in the house. At about 7 pm you would shower. You would also make sure that you got a fresh haircut. You got to have a fresh haircut!! And then you would have your clothes laid out on the bed. After the shower you would put your cologne on. The cologne back then was Champagne by Caron. You would get dressed and then you would go outside and get in a cab or an O'Jay. O'Jay was like the luxury cab company. You had to call early to reserve a car 'cause if you waited too long.....forget about it..you would get nothing. And an  O'Jay was either a Cadillac or an Oldsmobile 98. You would go over to the party and take your girl with you or meet her there...whatever the case might be.You might also just ride with your friends or the girls might be riding with their girls. Everybody was doing their thing, man!!  We was doing adult things at a young age. We didn't do stupid things. We lived to party."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What were some of the other spots that you DJed at with DJ Kojak?"

DJ ICE:"We had a park, me and DJ Kojak. We found this park in the neighbourhood. Nobody was ever down there and the park was full of glass. I told Kojak, "Man, we need to find a place that we can call our home as far as block parties." He said, "We got River Park Towers." I said, "Nah, we can't just set up here and just throw a party. We need to be somewhere on the Westside that we can call home." Me and Kojak went down, I showed him the park. We cleaned it up and it was on Sedgwick Avenue & Cedar Avenue and it was Cedar Park."

SIR NORIN RAD:"So you were actually the first DJs to play in Cedar Park?"

DJ ICE:"That's right. That was our park. We were the first to throw a jam in there. At this point in the game I was like 16 years old. I told my younger brother Spice Nice who was like 12, 13 years old at this point,"I found this park but I don't know how I'mma get electricity down there." He said,"Where is it at?" And I told him I said, "Cedar Park." He didn't say nothing. About four hours later he came and found me. He said, "You can give your block party now if you want." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "I hooked it up." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, you know the light pole?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "I went in there and put an adapter in there so you could hook up to it and give a block party." I said, "No, you didn't." He said, "Yes, I did." I said, "Man, momma would have killed me if something happened to you down there!" You see, Spice Nice always was a kid growing up that would always tinker around with stuff. Like he made his own doorbell and he also made his first mixer by hand! He made a mixer!! So anyway because of him we was able to throw a party. So we went out and set up the equipment. At his time we had left DJ Prince and we had hooked up with Mr. Magic and we did the first jam in Cedar Park. And Cedar Park was packed!!!!! It was a huge park. It has a big fence around it on the back side and on the street side. If it wasn't 1500 to 2000 people in there it wasn't nobody there. It might have been more because people was standing on the sidewalks. Vendors showed up, you know they was selling hot dogs and sodas on the sidewalk. We had a good time. No incidents! We partied until we didn't want to party no more. I think we stopped at around 1:30 in the morning."

November 3rd, 1978: DJ Ice & DJ Kojak are playing at the Sparkle (Harlem).

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please explain how you built up your record collection? How did you finance all that?"

DJ ICE:"Well, you had a little job and you made a little money from your parties and you hustled on the side. You know, whatever it was. Some people was good at shooting pool. You know, you could make your 40$ shooting pool. Maybe 100$ shooting pool. And back then 100$ went a long way. Even 40$ went a long way. Money had a value to it back then. You did what you had to do to hustle up some cash to build a record collection. Sometimes you had friends that had albums in their house and they would give 'em to you or let you use them. There was record stores. You didn't download beats online. It wasn't no internet. It wasn't no cellphones. Communication was on the street then and it was face to face. You made flyers if you was throwing a party. That's how the word got out. The streets talked back then. So if you was throwing a party the streets would talk about it. You would go to Manhattan to Downstairs Records and you would spend hours in there searching for music. Searching for albums and 45s. And a lot of successful DJs they wouldn't let you see what they was playing. The labels of the records were either covered or erased. You didn't just grab the name. You had to put in work to find out who made that song! You had to go hunting for it. A lot of songs...you would just go down to record stores and hunt for hours. Sometimes you would spend five hours down there and find nothing!!! Sometimes you would only find like a very short beat and you would turn into something nice by extending it or mixing it with something else. The crowd they just loved new beats! Some of the beats we knew from our childhood 'cause our parents played them. So we went to their album collection. Music was a big industry back then. You had your Mom & Pop record stores. Then you had your big corporation record stores. Then you had your underground record stores." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Okay, and how did built up your soundsystem? How strong was it?"

DJ ICE:"To tell you the truth back then I wasn't into wattage. But I could tell you this. Mr. Magic had one of the best soundsystems you would ever hear in your life!!! Number one is he had two speakers that came...you know, how you have warning speakers in your neighbourhod? They have them on the telephone poles."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Yes, for public announcements..."

DJ ICE:"Yeah, public announcements. Well, back then they used to have big horns and Mr. Magic had two of those and he used those for mids and then he had like six base speakers and then he had Bose speakers that he used for tweeters. You can't beat Bose!!!  He had like four amps that were just pushing! They wasn't even turned up past 3 and he could smoke a park. Easily smoke a park! We battled Kool DJ Herc one time at the Sparkle which used to be the Executive Playhouse and my God you couldn't even hear Kool DJ Herc!!! You couldn't hear him and so his guys got upset and they went around pulling our speaker wires. So we packed up and left. That's what they planned to do to get rid of us because he was gonna get smoked that night! At that point he was already past his prime. I mean he was still a big name! Don't get me wrong. Kool DJ Herc is always gonna be a big name but he was already passed that.

SIR NORIN RAD:"That Mr. Magic that you're talking about isn't the famous radio host from the 1980ies though, right?"

DJ ICE:"It was a different guy. His name was Rob Summers. He was a big guy about 6'1. He was also a good guy. He lived in 1600 Sedgwick Avenue right next door to Kool DJ Herc. So did DJ Black Jack. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were DJ Kryptonite and DJ Fudge?"

DJ ICE:"They were all from Sedgwick Avenue. It was a group: DJ Black Jack, Doc La Rock, DJ Fudge and Dj Kryptonite. Yeah, that was a group mainly out of 1600 Sedgwick Avenue. They was from the Westside of the Bronx. And Black Jack wind up DJing with Kool Herc. for a while. That was before Imperial J.C. was down with Kool DJ Herc."  

SIR NORIN RAD:"Okay, and who was DJ Pee Wee?"

DJ ICE:"Yeah, DJ Pee Wee! He DJed out of River Park Towers.  There was also another DJ that DJed with DJ Prince after me and DJ Kojak had left named DJ Pop. River Park Towers was huge for talent!!!"

November 24th, 1978: DJ Ice & DJ Kojak are playing at I.S. 131 in the Bronx along with the Brothers Disco, DJ Mario & The Chuck Chuck City Crew and DJ Afrika Bambaataa & The Zulu Nation.

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please describe the role of each individual within your crew!"

DJ ICE:"Well, Mr. Magic..his main thing was setting up the equipment. He was older than us. He would play a little bit. His crowd was an older crowd. More like a college crowd, they wasn't into breakbeats and B-Boying like we were. DJ Kojak might start off  or we would start off together. If Kojak would play I would hand him records or I would play and he would hand me records. We would also be on the mic, hyping up the crowd. We played together a lot of times, a lot of times we played on our own. We kept the party moving and grooving and we had a strong following crowd. Very strong. Guys like Lovebug Starski, Kool DJ AJ and Grandmaster Flash would come to our parties and we would go to their parties."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please name your top 3 breakbeats of all time!"   

DJ ICE:"James Brown "Give It Up Or Turn It A Loose". I heard this song about 3 million times and still can't get enough of it. "Apache" That was it when that came out, man!! it was over with that! Also for me "Get Into Something" by The Isley Brothers and "It's Just Begun" by The Jimmy Castor Bunch. That was the anthem! "Scorpio" by Dennis Coffey. "Baby Huey "Listen To Me". That was THE song!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please talk about the Hustle records that you would play at your jams!"

DJ ICE:"We would play a session with just breakbeats and then we would break it down. Slow the beats down. We would play stuff like "Down On The Avenue" by The Fat Larry's Band or "Dominos" by Donald Byrd or "T Plays It Cool" by Marvin Gaye" and then we would break it into the Hustle session. Man, the party wouldn't stop. It's like a whole new energy that you pump into the crowd. You got 100 people on the floor doing the Hustle!! It was insane! I'm telling you.They had some fantastic Hustle dancers back then. Like Eldorado Mike and there were some sisters out of the Westside that was really good dancers. Hustlers! It was Sondra and she had two other sisters. There was four of them, one of them didn't dance. Then there was Janice aka Janet Rock. She was huge!!!!Oh my God, she could Hustle, man! Hiphop wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for the females! They played a huge part."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you also play slow joints?"

DJ ICE:"Oh, yeah! You would start off with a bounce groove and then you would build it up to a party groove. Then you would go into B-Boying. Theeeen you would go into a more mellow Hustling groove and then you would slow it down. You would slow it down to get the bar going. You would slow it down with slow songs. "I Found Love On A Two Way Street", "For The Love I Gave To You"....the list goes on and on. We would break it down. We would always play slow songs! That was a part of it back then. Every DJ did that."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you like to give some shoutouts at the end of this interview?"

DJ ICE:"Oh yeah, yeah!! I would like to thank my Father in heaven for the opportunity to experience all that I have with Hiphop and in life with kids and grandkids 'cause without Him we are all lost. That's the first shoutout! The second will be to my man DJ Kojak! May he rest in peace! To my boy DJ Black Jack and to all the brothers and sisters that I have met and partied with at such a young age. Hiphop is something I will always have in my heart and I will always have with me. To DJ Clutch, DJ Pee Wee and DJ Whitehead!

Interview with MC Kool Zay (The Untouchables)

                                                Interview with MC Kool Zay (The Untouchables)

                                                               

MC Kool Zay (The Untouchables)

                                              conducted by Sir Norin Rad (The Intruders/Germany)

SIR NORIN RAD:"When and where were you born?"

KOOL ZAY:"I was born in the early 1960ies in Harlem, New York."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did you grow up at? Like on which street..."

KOOL ZAY:"I grew up on 119th Street between St. Nicholas and 8th Avenue. It's currently called Frederick Douglass Boulevard."

SIR NORIN RAD:"When you think back to your childhood days to what kibd of music were you exposed back then?"

KOOL ZAY:"I had older siblings, a mother and a father. They were both music lovers. They were not musicians but they were music lovers. My father exposed me to a lot of Jazz and Latin music. My mother was a big Soul music lover. She loved Soul and Rhythm and Blues. My older siblings liked the Motown sound. So we had a lot of different types of music being played in the household  and early on I got exposed to a lot of other Pop music because all we had was AM radio. Transistor radios is what we listened to. So I listened to the Rock music that was coming out. Easy listening music."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Are you of Puerto Rican descent?"

KOOL ZAY:"Black and Puerto Rican. My mother is Black and my father is Puerto Rican."  

SIR NORIN RAD:"What was it like to grow up in Harlem during the 1960ies and the early 1970ies?"

KOOL ZAY:"Harlem was an incredible place! Even going back there today I cam still feel this energy. It's hard to describe the energy that you feel when you go back to New York City. Harlem was a place that was filled with culture. It was a neighbourhood in the true sense of the word where we had neighbours. Kids spent a lot of time outside in the streets...playing, learning. Harlem was a very educational place in which the Nation of Islam was a big part of that. You had the Black Panther Party whose headquarters was just a block away from where I lived.  So there were a lot of street preachers and educaters that were in the neighbourhood. Lots of bookstores with African-American education. It was just a vibrant city. The neighbourhood was vibrating and creative. So it was inevitable that something like Hiphop would flourish in a place like Harlem."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which schools did you go to?"

KOOL ZAY:"I attended William J. O'Shea and I went to Brooklyn Tech." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What was your first encounter with Hiphop culture? Did you carry a Uni Wide marker with you and bomb the trains as a young teenager?"

KOOL ZAY:"Yeah, I would always run into Writers like Tracy 168, P-Nut or Jester. We had all city! My partners and I we were Writers and we were in every borough. We were tagging, carrying a Mini Wide or Uni Wide marker or a Pilot marker. Then we would also be racking up and hit the train yards. We would mostly hit the 3 yard. So I got down with 3YB (3 Yard Boys). I gravitated more to the 3 yard 'cause it was easier to get in and get out and it was closer to home. And we had places where we could observe our pieces when they would come out of the tunnels. We had a friend who had an apartment....from his window we could actually watch the trains come out of the tunnel so we could  see our artwork in the daylight.  So yeah, we hit different train lines."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What did you write?"

KOOL ZAY:"I wrote DO 2. I was 12 or 13 when I started tagging. Initially, it was just tagging but then we did pieces, too. So the more I got involved into Writing, the better I became at it. I was always artistic, I could always draw and paint. So it was only natural to fall into Writing as an art. We did throw-ups, pieces even burners." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What made you pick the name DO 2?" 

KOOL ZAY:"That's a good question! It's something I thought about. I don't remember. DO 2! I wanted something quick and easy to tag. So I didn't  really wanna use a long name. I wanted to be DOC but somebody else was already using DOC.  So then I just shortened it to DO 2."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What are your first recollections of DJs playing breakbeats in a park or a schoolyard?"

KOOL ZAY:"Alright! My first influence was DJ Hollywood. DJ Hollywood played in Harlem a lot. He played block parties and things of that nature and I was sort of mesmerized by the way DJ Hollywood would mix records and also talk over the records and get the crowd going. So DJ Hollywood was my first influence in the mid 1970ies. There were other local DJs that started to spring up and all of a sudden we were hearing the breakbeats coming out of the Bronx and we were purchasing those records like "Bongo Rock". I had another friend by the name of Andre....not Mixmaster Andre. He was also a DJ and he was battling a DJ in the neighbourhood named DJ Rob Shock. DJ Rob Shock had an MC named Prince Delight. Andre didn't have an MC so he asked me if I would MC for the battle. So DJ Rob Shock battled the other DJ Andre...which was Andre Bryant. They went at it. I MCeed. Prince Delight did his thing for DJ Rob Shock but we weren't actually battling as MCees. We were just supporting our DJs at the time. This meeting between me and Prince Delight was what prompted us to get together and start writing rhymes together. But in high school I met a guy that I became best friends with, a guy from the Bronx who happened to be dating Kool DJ Herc's younger sister. To this day they're still married. So all of my influences were pretty direct and pretty sudden when they happened. So I started hanging out in the Bronx and my friend....we called him Junior but his real name was Phil...he lived in the same building as Kool DJ Herc. He's from 1520 Sedgwick Avenue. So I would go to Kool DJ Herc's parties and one of my first memories of going to a Kool DJ Herc party was in a park. Cedar Park to be exact and I just remember approaching the park from a distance and hearing the rumbling of the bass. I couldn't wait to get to the park, to be inside, to be a part of that crowd. Hearing beats like "Apache", "The Mexican", "Planetary Citizen"....you know, songs that Kool DJ Herc was dropping. Watching the B-Boys breakdancing...it was just a whole experience. That was my first experience of Hiphop and extending the beats. But my first influence was DJ Hollywood. I then became a freelance MC."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where did that battle between that other DJ Andre and DJ Rob Shock take place at?"

KOOL ZAY:"Actually, it was in a pool hall. It was between 119th & 120th Street on 8th Avenue. It was called Jeff's Pool Hall. At night time...they had juke boxes in there where they would play music but then at night the DJs would play."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Were these DJs already using that Bronx formula of rocking breakbeats?"

KOOL ZAY:"Yup! Yup! I remember they were playing songs like "Groove To Ge Down" by T-Connection and "Scratching" by The Magic Disco Machine."

SIR NORIN RAD:"So this must have been around 1978 'cause that's when "Groove To Get Down" by T-Connection came out."

KOOL ZAY:"Probably, yes."

SIR NORIN RAD:"MCing wasn't really technically advanced at that time, right?"

KOOL ZAY:"It was very elementary in the beginning. Highlight the people that came in the place, give a shoutout, make announcements and say stuff like,"Yes, yes y'all!!! To the beat y'all!" It still took a certain skill set though. To be an MC...a Master of the Ceremonies you had to be able to...as Rakim said...move the crowd. Not everybody could get up on the mic and rhythmically talk or rhyme and get the crowd interested in what they were saying. MCing started out as just slick talk and rhyming became a natural progression. There were rhyming influences such as Muhammad Ali. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!! Things like that influenced MCing." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who won that battle between that other DJ Andre and DJ Rob Shock and how was the winner determined?"

KOOL ZAY:"By crowd participation....You know, I don't recall who won that battle. I think it was really close. Andre was probably the better DJ. They were both good though and they were both from the same neighbourhood so it was kinda hard. Everybody had their friends there. It was pretty close competition.But what I remembered most about it was that I got an appreciation for the MCing I did. Prince Delight was like, "Wow, we live across the street from each other. We need to get together and do something!"There was a friend that lived in Prince Delight's building named Selwyn and he was friends with the Untouchable Crew's managers which were their older brothers Lonnie Love and Randy. And there was T & T who was also a DJ in the Untouchables with DJ Mixmaster Andre. He said they were coming up to Harlem to play a block party. It's gonna be on a 118th Street & St. Nick (St. Nicholas Avenue), between 118th & 119th Street and St. Nick. He brought them up. They set up. We got introduced to them. We rocked the first party with the Untouchables at a block party on my block."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Where were the Untouchables from?"

KOOL ZAY:"They were from Downtown..Douglass Projects. Douglass Center was their homebase."

Frederick Douglass Houses

SIR NORIN RAD:"What exactly do you mean when you say Downtown?"

KOOL ZAY:"Okay, Harlem is considered Uptown which is the higher numbers and DJ Mixmaster Andre lived on 102nd Street Central Park West. I grew up on 119th Street, so he grew up 17 blocks away. The Douglass Projects are a couple of avenues over....like between Amsterdam Avenue, Columbus Avenue....in that area."

SIR NORIN RAD:"There is this famous song by Bobby Womack "Across 110th Street"..."

KOOL ZAY:"110th Street..yeah. That's the separation. Harlem starts at a 110th Street."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What kind of neighbourhood was Douglass Projects? Was it a predominantly Black neighbourhood?"

KOOL ZAY:"Very mixed. Mostly Blacks and Hispanics."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please elaborate on how you got down with DJ Mixmaster Andre & The Untouchables!"

KOOL ZAY:"Like I said was freelancing up in the Bronx, doing stuff there but I became dedicated to the Untouchables the day of the block party. At that stage Prince Delight and I we were practicing together. We were already writing rhymes and rap routines together. So when we got on with the Untouchables that day it was made official that day. We became members of the Untouchables family."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please name the locations where the Untouchables would play at!"

KOOL ZAY:"One of our staple places was a place called Mr. Souls on 115th Street. We played a lot of outdoor events like Schomburg. We played the P.A.L...the Police Athletic League on 123rd Street. Randy's Place in Harlem on 125th Street. The Celebrity Club.....Harlem World became like one of our home spots where we competed in a lot of the DJ / MC battles. Just a lot of different spots, indoor and outdoor. Oh Central Park & 110th Street by the pool. We would set up out there and that's where a lot of members from other crews would get down with us like Johnny Wa and Rayvon from The Magnificent Seven. Those brothers would always get on with us.  Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde used to get on with us. Silver Fox used to get on with us when he was up and coming. He was a little older than us. "

January 23rd, 1981: Mixmaster DJ Andre & The Untouchables are rocking at Douglass Center 

SIR NORIN RAD:"I saw an interview with Kool G Rap in which he stated that Silver Fox was his main influence when it comes to rhyming."

KOOL ZAY:"So was LL Cool J. LL Cool J was influenced by Silver Fox." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did he already stand out to you back then?"

KOOL ZAY:"I wouldn't say that he stood out to me because I thought that the Untouchable MCees were already at a higher level. I guess it was his placement, where he was hanging out and who he took under his wing. Like when he took LL Cool J to places like Joe Grants. Silver Fox would bring his own microphone around with him. He was hungry. As an MC he was hungry and he got skills. Not taking anything away from him. He still has skills."

SIR NORIN RAD:"How would you decribe your own style of MCing?"

KOOL ZAY:"I was more a lyrical guy. Lyrical and voice wise. MCees back then really had to have a voice of what we considered a good voice. I had a good voice and I had great rhymes. I was also a storyteller. A little crowd participation but I would say  for me the king of crowd participation was Busy Bee Starski. Busy Bee moved the crowd like no other!!!!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"That's why he was called the Chief Rocker!"

KOOL ZAY:"The Chief Rocker Busy Bee!!! But these are all guys we did parties with. Busy Bee, The Treacherous Three, Spoonie Gee....these are all my homies."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Which DJ/MC crew had the most profound influence on you when you started MCing?"

KOOL ZAY:"The Furious!!!! It would be the Furious! Melle Mel of course is a stand out to me. His voice and his delivery and his lyrics. He was an MC that was actually saying something. He wasn't just Yes Yes Y'alling us to death. He had something to say and he said in a very powerful way. So yeah I was always impressed with Melle Mel. The Furious Five....I liked their showmanship. They added a different element to MCing. They made it a show. They had presentation. So did the Cold Crush Brothers. I liked watching them. They were a bit more raw but I liked watching them and I liked the storytelling of Grandmaster Caz. He had humour built into his delivery. The GMC was tight!!! And the Fantastic Romantic Five they turned it into a performance, too! I was actually one of the people that was instrumental in putting on the Force MCees. They came over from Staten Island. They actually auditioned for me outside of Harlem World. Stevie D and Mercury. So I'm the first one to put them on in Harlem World. They actually came from Staten Island to perform with the Untouchables. We did a block party together at the same place where I met The Untouchables. We played there with the Force MCees."

                                                    

March 13th, 1981: DJ Mixmaster Andre & The Untouchables are rocking at Harlem World. 

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did they know about you?"

KOOL ZAY:"They took the ferry. They would come up to Harlem World and they basically would see if they could get in. I don't know if they were too young to get in or what it was but they wanted to get in. So I was hanging out with Prince Delight's cousin Rick. We was sort of like running things at Harlem World during that time. You know, working with DJ Randy and Son of Sam and Charlie Rock and the Harlem World Crew.  So I was chilling outside with Rick while Rick was taking a smoke break outside and I heard Stevie D and Mercury doing some rap routines and singing and I was like, "These kids got talent! These kids are doing something I never heard before in Hiphop." I was like, "We gotta put them down! We gotta put them in a show!" So we got them in Harlem World. They did their thing and the rest is history."

SIR NORIN RAD:"I love to listen to their live tapes. They're truly outstanding to me."

KOOL ZAY:"Their routines were incredible. Using theme songs from Gilligan's Island and the Brady Bunch. Yeah, they were very creative and they could sing and rap! They were a crowd favourite! They stepped up to the big leagues real fast. So at one of the competitions we had at Harlem World DJ Mixmaster Andre actually DJed in place of DJ Dr. Rock (the DJ of the Force MCees) for the Force MCees."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were the MCees of the Untouchables? I have seen numerous different line-ups so far."

KOOL ZAY:"The Untouchable Crew consisted of several MCees and amongst the several MCees was a female MC who became more popular after joining the Death Committee."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Pebblee Poo"

KOOL ZAY:"Pebblee Poo. Pebblee Poo was down with the Untouchables!!"

SIR NORIN RAD:"And she was also down with with Kool DJ Herc & The Herculords, wasn't she?"

KOOL ZAY:"She was down with Kool Herc, too. So we were like moving in the same circles. Pebblee Poo and I but we became Untouchables around the same time. So we would practice down at Andre's and practice routines for battles. The usual battles would take place at Mr. Souls and I mean we competed against crews ike the Treacherous Three. The Untouchables..we were killing them!!! That's when Doc Ice came to us. It was Burt B, Pebblee Poo, Kool Zay, Prince Delight and Doc Ice. And Monrock who was from the Lower East Side I think. We had routines and it's funny because Pebblee Poo who went to DJ Master Don & The Death Committee carried some of those routine styles over to the Death Committee. So we had sing songy type rap routines utilizing the Jackson Five....stuff like that.We had rap routines, creative wordplay, bouncing back to back like the other MC finishing the sentences and adding emphasis. At the time I left New York we were on the rise. We were the guys to beat in Harlem. I joined the navy and left New York City. I'm from the True School of Hiphop. Performance mattered, you know? Crowd participation mattered. Creative wordplay mattered. Great voices mattered. Great DJs mattered. Great B-Boys and B-Girls mattered. So coming from that to watching the decline of Hiphop has occurred." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please describe the strengths of each MC that was down with the Untouchables!"

KOOL ZAY:"Prince Delight he was also lyrical and he had many creative ideas as far as how we should do the rap routines. Pebblee Poo she had a decent singing voice. She liked to do the sing songy type stuff. Burt B was an MC who had energy to get the crowd participation going. Doc Ice had the baritone voice. He didn't have as many rhymes as the rest of us 'cause he was coming more from a DJ background initially and became an MC and Monrock was an MC with good rhyme patterns."    

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did your crew feel when Pebblee Poo left for the Death Committee Crew and took some of your routines with her? I once read that actions like that could lead to beef back then. Like when Boo Ski left the G-Force Crew in order to join DJ Master Don and his Death Committee Crew his old comrades wanted to beat him up for that."

KOOL ZAY:"We weren't upset about it. We just came up with some new stuff. I actually liked the Death Committee Crew's MCees because of Boo Ski. I liked his rap style and his singing. He could actually sing, too. Boo Ski he was pretty tight."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Please describe the practice sessions of the Untouchable Crew!"

KOOL ZAY:"Girls did not hang out with us when we were rehearsing. We took practice seriously. We recorded a lot of our rehearsals. There were moments when we would actually write routines on the way to a performance and practicing while walking to the performance and we would lay it down! That is like a lost art I don't see anybody doing stuff like that anymore. The Untouchables we could actually write routines on our way to a party!! We would have like a intro before the DJ would drop the beat. Like,"Gentlemen and ladies! Ladies and gentlemen you're about to witness the sound of the Devious Five MCees!"Or whatever, you know? "Mixmaster DJ Andre, go one for the treble,  two for the time!Come on, Andre! Let's rock that!" He would drop the beat! Yeah, we would write stuff like that on the way to the party and we would get there and we would have a whole rhyme routine that was written while in transit whether on the subway or by walking."

SIR NORIN RAD:"That's that true Hiphop!!!"

KOOL ZAY:"That's true Hiphop! It wasn't about the fame, it wasn't about the money. We were just doing this because we loved it, nobody was recording this on camera. Nobody even thought about it."

December 24th, 1980: The Untouchable Crew is rocking at the legendary Harlem World Club.

SIR NORIN RAD:"How important was it to look fly as an MC in your era?"

KOOL ZAY:"Yeah, we were fly. I was a fly guy. You would  save your money and then you would hit up A.J. Lester's on 125th Street. You got your mocknecks and your A.J Lesters, your Marshmallow Shoes, British Walkers. Back then..the Applejack Hats. That's before Kangols were out. So gear was definetely an important part of Hiphop.  And it's funny because when you're doing it, you're doing it because that's what you do.We were not trying to set a trend or anything. We just liked what we liked. I saw some of the gear that you posted, Norin, and I was like,"Man! He is true to the game! He's true to it!" But yeah, I loved the fly gear. You know what's weird about growing up in Harlem back then? You would actually get ridiculed if you were wearing the cheap stuff. So it would behoove you to save up your money, make your money and buy the good stuff. I made a lot of money hustling in pool. I played billiards or pool and that's where I spent a lot of my time. Hanging out in pool halls, making money that way. I also did little jobs."

SIR NORIN RAD:"What was it like to have such an iconic store like A.J. Lester's in your neighbourhood?"

KOOL ZAY:"In my neighbourhood I was drawn by A.J. Lester's all the time. You know, of course if you're on the street there you're window shopping most of the time anyway. So just the display in the window of A.J. Lester's was enough to make you wanna go in there and it was the same with British Walkers. Like,"Oh, man! They got the new British Walkers out! I gotta get some of those!" So everything was right there in Harlem!"  

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you agree that the original MCing was not only about presenting the crowd with fresh rhymes but also about giving them something spectacular to look at? Like choreographies?"

KOOL ZAY:"That's true. Like I said the people who lead the way in performance had to be the Furious Five, the Fantastic Romantic Five and the Cold Crush Four. They lead the way as far as performance, then later on the Treacherous Three."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were the best DJs in Harlem back then?"

KOOL ZAY:"The top DJs during that time in Harlem were DJ Master Don....he was young, innovative and had a high skill level on the turntables just like DJ Mixmaster Andre, DJ Disco Wiz Mike Dee and DJ Spivey of the Magnificent Seven. What was unique about Andre is they put together this console that they had on wheels and they would wheel that console up to Harlem and we would play over in Grant Park, in places like that and we would have a battle in Grant Projects against DJ Krazy Eddie and his crew and they were supported by The Fearless Four." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What were your favourite breakbeats to rhyme over back then?"

KOOL ZAY:"Oh man! "Take Me To The Mardi Gras!", "Scratching" and it was a song by Brooklyn Dreams called "Music, Harmony And Rhythm". Those were my joints and of course "Bounce, Rock, Skate". I love stuff with basslines."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who came up with most of your routines?"

KOOL ZAY:"Prince Delight and myself were the ones who wrote most of the routines. I called Prince Delight the "Master Planer" 'cause he would write down every detail. He was very detail oriented guy. So he would write when the DJ would come in with this beat and at this point he gonna change the beat and come in with this next song. Very meticulous planning! He was the master planer when it came to DJ/MC routines. This is what I really enjoyed about being with the Untouchables. It wasn't just MCees saying,"We gonna get together and practice our routines." No, we got together with a DJ. We practiced DJ and MC routines."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Who were DJ Mixmaster Andre's DJ partners?"

KOOL ZAY:"Initially, it was DJ Disco Wiz Mike Dee. He is longer with us. Mike Dee was incredible. So the combination of DJ Mixmaster Andre and DJ Disco Wiz Mike Dee was untouchable, pun intended. Then there was also DJ Slick who was DJ Andre's younger cousin. Andre lived in a building that had a doorman and everything downstairs but upstairs the apartment was a pretty large apartment but we would all be crammed up into his room in which he had a lot of DJ equipment  and his bed. We would all be sitting on his bed or stand up. It was a crowded room with all the equipment and all the MCees. We were drinking Kool Aid usually. That was the cheapest thing they could give everybody. Keep it coming or we would just bring our own drinks up. Andre's family was very tolerant 'cause the soundsystem was cranking in his room! So when we recorded our rehearsals it was on point."

DJ Disco Wiz Mike Dee (The Untouchables) cuttin' it up

SIR NORIN RAD:"Did he also have a strong soundsystem? I have been told by many DJs and MCs that at least during the 1970ies it was mandatory for DJ/ MC crews to have that."

KOOL ZAY:"Definiteley. So yeah, that battle I was referring to up in Grant / Manhattanville Projects we won because we had the loudest soundsystem, too. When we kicked on that sound we pulled the crowd from the other DJ's setup. They all flocked over to us. Sound quality had a lot to do with it!!! You'd get send home if your soundsystem couldn't compete. Andre wheeled up there with that system he had put together. He had crew of guys just pushing stuff. You know, roadies. All by street! He couldn't even get on the subway with all that stuff." 

SIR NORIN  RAD:"Please explain what the breakbeats mean to Hiphop!"

KOOL ZAY:"The breakbeat represents energy. I mean if you think about it every breakbeat became popular for a reason. It was that where everybody would dance the hardest. It's the part that would get the B-Boys out there. They would be waiting for that breakbeat to come on before they even hit the dancefloor. So just the whole concept of keeping that beat going was the icing on the cake when it came to Hiphop. It's the foundation of Hiphop. So the breakbeat represents energy and Hiphop is energy whether it be in Writing, B-Boying, MCing or DJing.It is an energy that is tangible when you're confronted with it."

SIR NORIN RAD: "Crazy Legs from the Rock Steady Crew would meet the members of the Manhattan Chapter of his crew at Rock Steady Park which is on West 98th Street & Amsterdam Avenue. Did you know them?"

KOOL ZAY:"You know, who was DJing for them down there? That was DJ Mixmaster Andre 'cause that's where Douglass Projects is! I can't say we were close but B-Boys like Prince Ken Swift, Doze they were always around." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"What did take back then to become an outstanding MC?"

KOOL ZAY:"The ability to rhyme ON BEAT!! Cadence mattered. It seems to be missing in a lot of raps that I hear now.They don't care about the beats anymore.So you had to have a pocket. The pocket has to be rhythmic. It took mastery and uniqueness. Now everybody wants to sound the same. Back then you stood out if you were different. You had to have your own lyrics. You didn't want to be a biter. Being a biter was bad thing back in the day. Now it's okay to recycle someone else's lyrics. That was not a cool thing to do back then. Pretty much that's it. Great rhymes, great stage presence, being direct with the crowd, being able to look the crowd in the face and command the crowd. If you couldn't do that, they would turn their back. They would start talking to each other. They wouldn't even start paying attention to you. "

SIR NORIN RAD:"How did MC battles go down back then? Did you threaten or insult your opponenents like it's usually being done today?"

KOOL ZAY:"No, no. Battles were a friendly thing, you know? It was a friendly competition. If we lost a battle, we lived to see to battle another day. We would be like,"Man, we could have done better." or ,"They just had too many people there."You know, you'd make up excuses why you lost. (laughs) We appreciated the other crews who did their thing. I was happy for the Crash Crew when they had their local success." 

SIR NORIN RAD:"So what were the top 3 DJ/MC crews coming out of Harlem back then to you?"

KOOL ZAY:"The Untouchables, the Magnificent Seven and the Fearless Four."

SIR NORIN RAD:"Would you like to give some shoutouts at the end of this interview?"

KOOL ZAY:"I definetely would like to shout out the Mighty Untouchable Crew! Mixmaster DJ Andre! The late Disco Wiz Mike Dee! MC Burt B! MC Prince Delight! MC Pebblee Poo! MC Monrock! Kool Zay signing off!!" 

SIR NORIN RAD:"I want to give a shoutout to my Intruders Crew (Scarce One, Krwizard, A.G., Akira), to all the true pioneers of Hiphop and to Sureshot La Rock (thanks for the Napalm), Input MZK, Kenny IB, Profowon: Ukubambisana!!!!  Shoutouts to Pluto 7, Mr. Wiggles RSC, Andre Wilson and Troy L. Smith as well as to Pete Nice. Shout outs to my man Dwayne Moore from Liliuglychu !! To Princess Teela I'm coming home! 3996!"